Alice Cleaver

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Guest (R17)

Guest
Hello

This may get moved to the passenger research section - maybe it's not meant to be in this bit ?

Was just reading about this nurse ! What a funny story... I was wondering what people who are familiar with the story think ? Do you believe that she really was told to take Trevor to a lifeboat by Trevor’s father…. Or that the mother and father had no idea where Trevor was and looked all over the ship in the hope of finding him...I read some eye witness accounts claimed that the mother and father were frantically looking for him.

What do people believe about this little Titanic story…. It’s pretty sad really! Do you go along with the nurse being a hero and telling the truth or doing something, which must have resulted
into such a nightmare situation !!!

Suppose the book I was reading ‘Women And Children First’ has about as much information on what could have happened. But what do you believe. She does sound a little bit like a Viviane West Wood at times…

Also I heard this nurse made contact in the 1950’s with Walter Lord and 'A Night to Remember' and interestingly only died in 1986 — did anyone here ever meet her ? Was she active in the Titanic world….

Anyway would be interested in peoples personal opinions about her ?

Thanks !
 
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Guest (R17)

Guest
But the Titanica biography differs a bit from the book which it has suggested as reference reading 'Women and Children First'

>>>This, at least, was the Allison family's understanding of events when Mildred Brown and Alice Cleaver told of their experience to Hudson Allison's brother George.<<<

The Titanica biography does not say that after a period of thinking this nurse was a *hero* brother George found out what really went on from 2 other passenger accounts and by no means was this his *understanding* after.. Maybe the book is full of mistakes and she went on being a respected nurse with this family. But from what I read when George finally found out that his family had been looking all over the ship for Trevor - they got rid of her. Trevors sister nearly got a place in a life boat but was called back by her mother because they had no idea where Trevor was.

'Women And Children First' do not point out the mix up with names in 1909 with the woman that threw her baby from a train window tho !

Maybe it's just a book full of mistakes. They make her out to be something not so nice ! But it's down as suggested reading :)
 

mary mason

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Aug 24, 2003
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i have just re-read women and children first, the section on the Allison's does seem to try to push the reader into thinking bad of Miss. Cleaver.

could anyone tell me, did Alice ever actually make a written statement of what happened or did she just tell George. Allison what happened?
the reason i ask is because if a written statement was never made, it is impossible for us to actually know what Alice actually said.
i have been involved in a car crash, where all except me were killed, and what i have said about the acident, has been turned and twisted and incorrect details have been taken as fact. i just thought, the same thing could have happened with Alice's version of what happened that night.
Judy Gellar say's that Alice was the creator of the different versions of the Allison's fate, but i just wonder if the same thing happened to her, and over the years, family members have got the story twisted, or researchers/reporters have got it wrong and their versions of the story have been put down as being Alices.

anyway, my personal opinion on Alice, is that she was nothing more than a respectable nursemaid.
she was employed to care for baby Trevor, and that's what she did; she saved his life.
 
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Guest (R17)

Guest
Hello Mary

I'm sorry to hear you were in a car crash like that. Truly awful !

I read in the Women And Children First book that people saw the Alison family looking for their son all over the ship - yet if this nurse was told by the father to take Trevor to safety, then why would they have looked all over the ship for him - even missing a place in the life boat ? That's if the reports that she is *meant* to have said about taking the baby to safety by the father are true. Said that the family after the Titanic sunk were very pleased with her, but when found out about what is *meant* to have gone on - got rid of her. The book does make the mistake of saying she was the woman who were cleared of throwing her baby out of a train. According to Titanica that was a mix up of names !

There are so many interesting stories in that book - this is just one of many !
 

Jason D. Tiller

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My opinion of Alice Cleaver is along the same lines as Michael and Mary. She knew that she had a job to do in looking after Trevor and she did it well.

It's unfortunate for all these years, that she has been confused with another Alice Cleaver that killed her baby. I'm not sure if the family has had any success in finally clearing her name.
 
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Stephanie Stokes

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I think that Alice looked for the family and could not find them or they were not there at the time and she felt it her job to save Trevor.Look at it this way:She could have stayed on the ship and she and Trevor would have been lost.
 

John Knight

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My sentiments are those of mary. As far as I can ascertain Alice has not had fair publicity. She did her job and looked after Trevor. I can find no justification for the statements that have been made past and present that she took Trevor without at least the knowledge of one of the parents, and as Hudson was finding out about the accident I suspect that Mrs Allison gave her blessing.
 

mary mason

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i have today, purchased the book "From Workhouse to prison to.......... the Titanic?" by Dinah Burnett. ( Alice Cleaver's daughter, the name "Dinah Burnett" being a psuedonym)

the book clears up all reference to Alice having murdered her own child, and gives documented proof to show that her mother was innocent of these accusations. she also makes some very good points to stress that her mother did not snatch baby Trevor but was given permission.

i always find it interesting how Miss Cleaver is has been accused of being responsible for the death's of the Allisons. Every newspaper article, or eyewitness account i have read, states that the reason for Bess and Loraine perishing was because Bess would not leave her husband, not that she didnt know where her baby was.
Alice did her duty to the last, she saved Trevors life, and cared for him until she was relieved of her duties by Hudson's family.
Sarah Daniels has never been critisised for her actions, she left her mistress unattended to while she went up to the boat deck. whether she intended to go back, or wheter she quit, i don't know.
i do not want to pass the blame from Alice to Sarah, as i don't feel either of them are to blame for anything, but i just wanted to point out how Alice's actions are always being questioned and debated, but no-one does the same with Bess' maid.
 
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Mary, I found the Dinah Burnett book a thought provoking read for pretty much the same reasons: solid research and historical documentation and that no one seems to have looked at Sarah Daniels's role on the night in such critical detail. Unfortunately the vitriol she directs at Don Lynch and the THS, and the blame directed at Daniels, detracts from the work overall. Also, that we don't actually learn anything about the real Alice Cleaver - and are chastised for wanting to do so. Anyway, FWIW that's my opinion.
 

mary mason

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Fiona,
i agree 100% with you that her personal feelings towards Don Lynch does detract from the work. I was dissapointed that the book does not let you know anything new about Alice Cleaver, because when i read the blub it suggested that it did, and at the end of the book, she belittles us for wanting to know about her.
i just want to point out that, in my last post i was not suggesting that Sarah Daniels was to blame, i was just saying her actions havent been critisised like Alice's were.
IMO Bess Allison was a big girl, and capable of dressing herself, even if her maid did walk out, she was also an adult and she had a brain of her own to think with, so i do not think Alice or Sarah are to blame for Bess' death or that of her husband and daughter.
 
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Why do they blame Alice for the death of Hudson, Bess and Loraine Allison? She did only her job; protecting Trevor. And there is no prove that she didn't worn Bess. We all know Bess was really headstrong...
 
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João Carlos Pereira Martins

Guest
Personally I think that Mr. Allison knew that the officers wouldn't allow him to get on a lifeboat and Bess wasn't particulary interested in abandon her husband. So, he probably told Cleaver to run away with baby Trevor and save him.

João
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Hello Joao,

quote:

So, he probably told Cleaver to run away with baby Trevor and save him.
While there is no solid evidence, it seems to be that the Allison's were not aware that Alice Cleaver had taken Trevor off safely. If they had known about it, there would be no reason for them to search the ship. They would have made every attempt to get into a lifeboat and if Hudson had to stay on board, I'm certain he would have made sure that Bess and Loriane were off safely.​
 
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alice cleaver was not confused with another who killed her baby. she did kill her baby and modern day psychologists recognize her pathology of replacing what she had lost with trevor and most agree trevor was taken without the allisons knowledge. in new york alice cleavers story changed many times at first she said she had told bessie allison. but she did no such thing and thats why the allisons died. before she boarded in southampton she had a tiny portrait made of lorraine and trevor and she had it put in a gold heart shaped locket. if alice cleaver had told the allisons why did she spend the night running up to people and showing them the portrait and asking if they had seen him. also if alice had told bessie why was bessie last seen holding lorraine, hugging hudson and screaming and whailing looking at the portrait if she knew trevor was safe this would not have happend. alice cleaver's name should not be cleared it should be marred with the stain of causing the death of the allison family. may the allisons find peace together in heaven.
 

mary mason

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Grant

What is your source for this "portrait" story? I've never heard anything like it in all the time I've been researching the Allison's so I would be interested to know where you got the information from. I won't even comment on your views on Nurse Cleaver.

Regards
Mary
 
Aug 2, 2006
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mary
i was in orlando florida at the titanic expirience in the mercado and the actor there was portraying Hudson Allison. he talked about the locket and how bessie was seen running up to people asking if they had seen trevor and showing them his picture. then i asked him about it and he told me that she had done that.
 

Jason D. Tiller

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quote:

alice cleaver was not confused with another who killed her baby.
Ah, excuse me; but you are incorrect. Alice Catherine Cleaver was confused with the Alice Mary Cleaver that killed her baby. What makes you believe that they were the same person, when they clearly weren't?

This quote is from Alice Cleaver's biography:

quote:

In the book Titanic: An Illustrated History, it was alleged that Alice Cleaver had been convicted in 1909 of murdering the infant she had borne out of wedlock. It later emerged that Alice Catherine Cleaver (Titanic Survivor) had apparently been confused with one Alice Mary Cleaver (alleged child killer). The perpetuation of the allegation in other books and in a made for television movie compounded the confusion. The apparent mistake led family members in the United Kingdom to take legal action against some of those involved in publishing the allegations. For reasons which are currently unclear this legal challenge was later dropped. As matters stand at the present time it can be stated that no evidence has been found to suggest that the Alice Cleaver on board Titanic was anything other than a "competent nursemaid", and later, a thoroughly respectable wife and mother. What became of Alice Mary Cleaver is unknown.
The Cleaver family has vehemently denied that these two entirely different women were the same person. For years, they have attempted to clear her name for once and for all.

quote:

alice cleaver's name should not be cleared it should be marred with the stain of causing the death of the allison family.
I disagree. Alice Cleaver should not be blamed for the deaths of Hudson, Bess and Loriane; that's outrageous. Sure, she may have made a mistake in not informing the Allison's that she was taking Trevor, but that's no reason to lay guilt on a nursemaid who did her utmost best. As I speculated in another thread, she may very well have panicked and completely forgot to let the Allison's know of what she was doing, which is not uncommon in situations such as that, before heading to the boat deck.

quote:

he talked about the locket and how bessie was seen running up to people asking if they had seen trevor and showing them his picture. then i asked him about it and he told me that she had done that.
Since that's not considered a solid source and plus I've never come across it before, I'll take that story with a large grain of salt until I see more hard evidence.​
 

mary mason

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"mary
i was in orlando florida at the titanic expirience in the mercado and the actor there was portraying Hudson Allison. he talked about the locket and how bessie was seen running up to people asking if they had seen trevor and showing them his picture. then i asked him about it and he told me that she had done that."

Thanks for explaining Grant.
If I had been there, personally I would have asked the actor where he got his information from. Like I say I have never heard about it before in all the time I have been researching the Allison family. It may be a good idea to do your own investigating before just believing what an actor at an exhibition told you.

I agree 100% with everything Jason has said about Alice Cleaver.

Kind Regards
Mary
 

John Knight

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Jason has said it all. I have read a lot of ignorant statements before about the Allisons and about Alice.
Nearly ALL of them are hear say at best. If you care to search a little more, Grant, you will see just what nonsense you have posted.