Alice Cleaver

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Guest (R17)

Guest
Hello

This may get moved to the passenger research section - maybe it's not meant to be in this bit ?

Was just reading about this nurse ! What a funny story... I was wondering what people who are familiar with the story think ? Do you believe that she really was told to take Trevor to a lifeboat by Trevor’s father…. Or that the mother and father had no idea where Trevor was and looked all over the ship in the hope of finding him...I read some eye witness accounts claimed that the mother and father were frantically looking for him.

What do people believe about this little Titanic story…. It’s pretty sad really! Do you go along with the nurse being a hero and telling the truth or doing something, which must have resulted
into such a nightmare situation !!!

Suppose the book I was reading ‘Women And Children First’ has about as much information on what could have happened. But what do you believe. She does sound a little bit like a Viviane West Wood at times…

Also I heard this nurse made contact in the 1950’s with Walter Lord and 'A Night to Remember' and interestingly only died in 1986 — did anyone here ever meet her ? Was she active in the Titanic world….

Anyway would be interested in peoples personal opinions about her ?

Thanks !
 
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Guest (R17)

Guest
But the Titanica biography differs a bit from the book which it has suggested as reference reading 'Women and Children First'

>>>This, at least, was the Allison family's understanding of events when Mildred Brown and Alice Cleaver told of their experience to Hudson Allison's brother George.<<<

The Titanica biography does not say that after a period of thinking this nurse was a *hero* brother George found out what really went on from 2 other passenger accounts and by no means was this his *understanding* after.. Maybe the book is full of mistakes and she went on being a respected nurse with this family. But from what I read when George finally found out that his family had been looking all over the ship for Trevor - they got rid of her. Trevors sister nearly got a place in a life boat but was called back by her mother because they had no idea where Trevor was.

'Women And Children First' do not point out the mix up with names in 1909 with the woman that threw her baby from a train window tho !

Maybe it's just a book full of mistakes. They make her out to be something not so nice ! But it's down as suggested reading :)
 

mary mason

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Aug 24, 2003
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i have just re-read women and children first, the section on the Allison's does seem to try to push the reader into thinking bad of Miss. Cleaver.

could anyone tell me, did Alice ever actually make a written statement of what happened or did she just tell George. Allison what happened?
the reason i ask is because if a written statement was never made, it is impossible for us to actually know what Alice actually said.
i have been involved in a car crash, where all except me were killed, and what i have said about the acident, has been turned and twisted and incorrect details have been taken as fact. i just thought, the same thing could have happened with Alice's version of what happened that night.
Judy Gellar say's that Alice was the creator of the different versions of the Allison's fate, but i just wonder if the same thing happened to her, and over the years, family members have got the story twisted, or researchers/reporters have got it wrong and their versions of the story have been put down as being Alices.

anyway, my personal opinion on Alice, is that she was nothing more than a respectable nursemaid.
she was employed to care for baby Trevor, and that's what she did; she saved his life.
 
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Guest (R17)

Guest
Hello Mary

I'm sorry to hear you were in a car crash like that. Truly awful !

I read in the Women And Children First book that people saw the Alison family looking for their son all over the ship - yet if this nurse was told by the father to take Trevor to safety, then why would they have looked all over the ship for him - even missing a place in the life boat ? That's if the reports that she is *meant* to have said about taking the baby to safety by the father are true. Said that the family after the Titanic sunk were very pleased with her, but when found out about what is *meant* to have gone on - got rid of her. The book does make the mistake of saying she was the woman who were cleared of throwing her baby out of a train. According to Titanica that was a mix up of names !

There are so many interesting stories in that book - this is just one of many !
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Dec 3, 2000
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My opinion of Alice Cleaver is along the same lines as Michael and Mary. She knew that she had a job to do in looking after Trevor and she did it well.

It's unfortunate for all these years, that she has been confused with another Alice Cleaver that killed her baby. I'm not sure if the family has had any success in finally clearing her name.
 
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Stephanie Stokes

Guest
I think that Alice looked for the family and could not find them or they were not there at the time and she felt it her job to save Trevor.Look at it this way:She could have stayed on the ship and she and Trevor would have been lost.
 

John Knight

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Jun 4, 2004
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My sentiments are those of mary. As far as I can ascertain Alice has not had fair publicity. She did her job and looked after Trevor. I can find no justification for the statements that have been made past and present that she took Trevor without at least the knowledge of one of the parents, and as Hudson was finding out about the accident I suspect that Mrs Allison gave her blessing.
 

mary mason

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Aug 24, 2003
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i have today, purchased the book "From Workhouse to prison to.......... the Titanic?" by Dinah Burnett. ( Alice Cleaver's daughter, the name "Dinah Burnett" being a psuedonym)

the book clears up all reference to Alice having murdered her own child, and gives documented proof to show that her mother was innocent of these accusations. she also makes some very good points to stress that her mother did not snatch baby Trevor but was given permission.

i always find it interesting how Miss Cleaver is has been accused of being responsible for the death's of the Allisons. Every newspaper article, or eyewitness account i have read, states that the reason for Bess and Loraine perishing was because Bess would not leave her husband, not that she didnt know where her baby was.
Alice did her duty to the last, she saved Trevors life, and cared for him until she was relieved of her duties by Hudson's family.
Sarah Daniels has never been critisised for her actions, she left her mistress unattended to while she went up to the boat deck. whether she intended to go back, or wheter she quit, i don't know.
i do not want to pass the blame from Alice to Sarah, as i don't feel either of them are to blame for anything, but i just wanted to point out how Alice's actions are always being questioned and debated, but no-one does the same with Bess' maid.
 
Dec 8, 2000
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Mary, I found the Dinah Burnett book a thought provoking read for pretty much the same reasons: solid research and historical documentation and that no one seems to have looked at Sarah Daniels's role on the night in such critical detail. Unfortunately the vitriol she directs at Don Lynch and the THS, and the blame directed at Daniels, detracts from the work overall. Also, that we don't actually learn anything about the real Alice Cleaver - and are chastised for wanting to do so. Anyway, FWIW that's my opinion.
 

mary mason

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Aug 24, 2003
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Fiona,
i agree 100% with you that her personal feelings towards Don Lynch does detract from the work. I was dissapointed that the book does not let you know anything new about Alice Cleaver, because when i read the blub it suggested that it did, and at the end of the book, she belittles us for wanting to know about her.
i just want to point out that, in my last post i was not suggesting that Sarah Daniels was to blame, i was just saying her actions havent been critisised like Alice's were.
IMO Bess Allison was a big girl, and capable of dressing herself, even if her maid did walk out, she was also an adult and she had a brain of her own to think with, so i do not think Alice or Sarah are to blame for Bess' death or that of her husband and daughter.
 
Jul 1, 2005
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Why do they blame Alice for the death of Hudson, Bess and Loraine Allison? She did only her job; protecting Trevor. And there is no prove that she didn't worn Bess. We all know Bess was really headstrong...
 
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Brenda Zermeno

Guest
Re: Alice Catherine Cleaver

What was the poem that she wrote
 
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João Carlos Pereira Martins

Guest
Personally I think that Mr. Allison knew that the officers wouldn't allow him to get on a lifeboat and Bess wasn't particulary interested in abandon her husband. So, he probably told Cleaver to run away with baby Trevor and save him.

João
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Dec 3, 2000
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Hello Joao,

quote:

So, he probably told Cleaver to run away with baby Trevor and save him.
While there is no solid evidence, it seems to be that the Allison's were not aware that Alice Cleaver had taken Trevor off safely. If they had known about it, there would be no reason for them to search the ship. They would have made every attempt to get into a lifeboat and if Hudson had to stay on board, I'm certain he would have made sure that Bess and Loriane were off safely.​
 

Helen

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Apr 21, 2010
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Re: Helen Loraine Allison

So you say that Trevor & there nurse were missing do you acctually think that the nurse capptured Trevor or is that impossible ?


Also is it possible that somebody captured the nurse along with Trevor or the nurse was forsed to do it ?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>So you say that Trevor & there nurse were missing do you acctually think that the nurse capptured Trevor or is that impossible ?<<

Helen, I think you may be misreading the context of the story. As far as the Allisons were concerned, Trevor and Alice Cleaver were indeed missing, but nobody captured anybody. What happened was that Alice Cleaver took Trevor with her in one of the lifeboats. Unfortunately, the rest of the Allison family was unaware of this.
 
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Lina

Guest
Re: Alice Catherine Cleaver

"When she arrived in New York with the child, Alice avoided talking to reporters by telling them her name was Jean."

I believe that Alice Catherine Cleaver actually told the reporters that her name was Jane, not Jean. My evidence is in a book I picked up at a Titanic Museum in Branson, Missouri. But then again, it also says she is a child murderer. I might be wrong, but you might want to check your sources again.
happy.gif
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Dec 3, 2000
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Hello Lina,

That book is flat out incorrect, as the Alice Catherine Cleaver that was aboard Titanic was not the Alice Cleaver that murdered her baby. They were two completely different people and plus they had different middle names. That would be Alice Mary Cleaver that killed her infant. For many years, there was a lot of confusion between the two, but in recent times the family has been working very hard to try and dispel this myth.

Alice Catherine Cleaver was a very competent nursemaid and a respectable wife, and mother later on. If you click on the link from where you posted your message, you will notice that this information is at the end of her biography.
 
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alice cleaver was not confused with another who killed her baby. she did kill her baby and modern day psychologists recognize her pathology of replacing what she had lost with trevor and most agree trevor was taken without the allisons knowledge. in new york alice cleavers story changed many times at first she said she had told bessie allison. but she did no such thing and thats why the allisons died. before she boarded in southampton she had a tiny portrait made of lorraine and trevor and she had it put in a gold heart shaped locket. if alice cleaver had told the allisons why did she spend the night running up to people and showing them the portrait and asking if they had seen him. also if alice had told bessie why was bessie last seen holding lorraine, hugging hudson and screaming and whailing looking at the portrait if she knew trevor was safe this would not have happend. alice cleaver's name should not be cleared it should be marred with the stain of causing the death of the allison family. may the allisons find peace together in heaven.