All Lifeboats launched....

[Mike Spooner]

As Sam said why did they even bother to have collapsible boats in the first place? After all they where not required by the BoT regulations.
It seem to me WSL have made a rod for there back here. Then there is the non existent training for them, it not surprising there is a slow and difficult times for the poor old officers to sort out. Perhaps if there hadn't been any collapsible boats more time could of be used by loading more into the half filled lifeboats!

 

[Seumas]

As Sam said why did they even bother to have collapsible boats in the first place? After all they where not required by the BoT regulations.
It seem to me WSL have made a rod for there back here. Then there is the non existent training for them, it not surprising there is a slow and difficult times for the poor old officers to sort out. Perhaps if there hadn't been any collapsible boats more time could of be used by loading more into the half filled lifeboats!

Perhaps if there hadn't been any collapsible boats more time could of be used by loading more into the half filled lifeboats!

Both cutters and all fourteen standards had been cleared away by time work stated on the collapsibles. They weren't in anyone's way.

Then there is the non existent training for them

Firstly, they were actually quite simple to make ready. See the contemporary photographs and diagrams.

Secondly, many of the Titanic's deck crew were ex RN or on the rolls of the reserves. The RN used collapsible boats and part of one's training would have been how to assemble, lower, recover and disassemble them.

See the evidence of Lucas and Lightoller. They knew what they were doing with them.

The only problem's launching Collapsible's C and D were due to the ship's own list.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I believe I asked a while ago if a large ship of that era could have been modified to carry only Collapsible boats. The question was based on the statements in some books (true or not) that WSL did not accept Carlisle's suggestion for more standard lifeboats on the Olympic class ships because their storage areas would eat into the promenade areas of the boat deck. The Titanic disaster changed all that but I wondered if WSL and similar companies could still have their promenade space to some extent by using only Collapsible lifeboats.

Can someone clarify if Collapsible Lifeboats were simply not required by the BoT regulations or they actually did not meet BoT safety standards? In the latter case, could they have been modified to come within the statutory limits?

 

[Mike Spooner]

Bob Read D.M.D has done a good technical article on the Engelhardt collapsible boats.
What I can see there was no practical training on how to get down boats A & B off the officers quarter roof.
In fact there was never any full loaded lifeboat training and was not required by the BoT requirement to. Those on Titanic where the guinea pigs for such an operation.

 

[Seumas]

Bob Read D.M.D has done a good technical article on the Engelhardt collapsible boats.
What I can see there was no practical training on how to get down boats A & B off the officers quarter roof.
In fact there was never any full loaded lifeboat training and was not required by the BoT requirement to. Those on Titanic where the guinea pigs for such an operation.

What I can see there was no practical training on how to get down boats A & B off the officer's quarter roof.

They were to be brought down onto the deck using a block and tackle (through an attachment fixed to the funnel guywires) which would have been quite straightforward to operate. No technical knowledge was required in the slightest.

The only problem was the block and tackle were left below decks and by the time they realised they needed them, they were inaccessible underwater.

In fact there was never any full loaded lifeboat training and was not required by the BoT requirement to. Those on Titanic where the guinea pigs for such an operation.

Many of the deck ratings had done boat drill on the Olympic, on other White Star ships or those of other companies.

Others had boat handling experience with the RN.

Then of course there were those who took part in Lowe and Moody's boat drill at Southampton.

Some stewards even helped with the falls of a couple of boats, it wasn't rocket science, a lot of it was down to commons sense and following orders.

 

[Mike Spooner]

Lifeboat drills with crew members only is not a full loaded test. A more realistic drill is to have passengers of different ages and physical capabilities to. I don't even see any full loaded test like 65 persons in the large boat or 47 in collapsible boats and 40 in the cutter boats.

 

[Seumas]

Lifeboat drills with crew members only is not a full loaded test. A more realistic drill is to have passengers of different ages and physical capabilities to. I don't even see any full loaded test like 65 persons in the large boat or 47 in collapsible boats and 40 in the cutter boats.

There are some respected researchers who have grave doubts whether all the standard boats could have held sixty five, Bob Read being one of them who thought H&W were being overly optimistic with their ratings. Dave Gittins has also in the past voiced doubts whether the cutters could have safely held forty.

 

[Mike Spooner]

If there had ever been an full life boat drill those figures 65, 47 and 40 would of come to like if was feasible and was it still possible to row a boat to.
I can only see two boats 12 &15 did exceeded 65. I am not too sure with those figures how they coped with rowing. Then was it possible to put up the sails as well? However if there had been a full drills beforehand this problems would of come to like.

 

[Seumas]

If there had ever been an full life boat drill those figures 65, 47 and 40 would of come to like if was feasible and was it still possible to row a boat to.
I can only see two boats 12 &15 did exceeded 65. I am not too sure with those figures how they coped with rowing. Then was it possible to put up the sails as well? However if there had been a full drills beforehand this problems would of come to like.

This has been covered several times before already.

What Bob Read and Dave Gittins were sceptical of was if all the davits could have held a standard with sixty five, a cutter with forty etc. They were satisfied that the standards could hold their rated load water borne but not davit borne. There is a big difference between the two.

Boat No. Twelve that you mentioned was lowered (davit borne) from the davits with forty two occupants. It picked up twenty seven more people during the night (water borne) from two other boats.

Bob Read also made an excellent point that many people don't know, there is no written proof extant today that H&W ever actually tested the Titanic's davits to breaking point.

One event that ought to be much better known is the post-disaster tests on the strength of the Olympic's davits. These tests revealed that they were big inconsistencies in the strength of different davits. Some could hold the weight of seventy whilst others bent or snapped. These davits were not as strong as many people (including H&W) assumed they were.

In all likelihood, Murdoch and Moody probably got lucky with the davits of Boat No. Fifteen when they sent it down with sixty eight occupants. There is the distinct possibility that other sets of davits may not have been as strong.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Murdoch and Moody probably got lucky with the davits of Boat No. Fifteen when they sent it down with sixty eight occupants. There is the distinct possibility that other sets of davits may not have been as strong.

AFAIK, Murdoch was involved with Lifeboat #15 only with its positioning and early loading. When Lifeboat #13, which was slightly ahead with its loading, was lowered to the A-deck, it is very likely that Murdoch went down there to complete the loading, leaving Moody with #15 still on the boat deck. IMO, Murdoch was found there and relieved by Nichols, with the former crossing over to take charge of Lifeboat #10.

Leading Fireman Barrett arrived on A-deck just as Lifeboat #13 was about to be lowered and found Nichols in charge but no officer. But Barrett could hear an officer giving orders up on the boat deck, and this could only have been Moody. Nichols ordered Barrett into Lifeboat #13 and to "pull an oar". About a minute after Lifeboat #13 started to lower to the sea, Moody had Lifeboat #15 lowered to the A-deck to complete its own loading.

 

[Mike Spooner]

I have see a test of the davits performed at H&W with a BoT member present of weights to 70 men, and was pass off with flying colours.
Now I am not too sure if that was Olympic or Titanic. All I can see from the test the davits where of sound structure to take full boat loads before lowering down to water level. But unfortunately that important information was never pass on to captain and officers. What I can see the only person on board knows of such test should of been Thomas Andrews.
Now another factor if the big boats where to take 65 on board, was it still possible to put up the mask and boom for the sails?

 

[Thomas Krom]

What I can see the only person on board knows of such test should of been Thomas Andrews.

Thomas Andrews Jr wasn't the only person on-board who knew of the Board of Trade tests regarding the lifeboats, the other person being Roderick Chisholm, Harland and Wolff's chief draughtsman. Mr. Chisholm designed the class A lifeboats as constructed at the boat builders shed and was aware of such information as well.

 

[Seumas]

I have see a test of the davits performed at H&W with a BoT member present of weights to 70 men, and was pass off with flying colours.
Now I am not too sure if that was Olympic or Titanic. All I can see from the test the davits where of sound structure to take full boat loads before lowering down to water level. But unfortunately that important information was never pass on to captain and officers. What I can see the only person on board knows of such test should of been Thomas Andrews.
Now another factor if the big boats where to take 65 on board, was it still possible to put up the mask and boom for the sails?

Bob Read discovered those so called "davit tests" that took the weight of seventy men were actually electric boat winch tests. People have been getting fooled by this for decades.

The boat winches were to recover boats that had been lowered. They would not be needed on the night the Titanic sank.

Once again, Bob Read made a very good point that there is today no written proof known to exist that H&W ever tested all the davit arms of the Titanic to the limit to see what they were capable of. There is proof that tests were made on the electric winches but not the davits.

All we know are the two davit arms for Boat No. Fifteen passed their test on the job, the others were never subjected to that kind of pressure and we'll never know what they were capable of.

A reasonable doubt most certainly does exist. Nothing man made is flawless.

 

[Mike Spooner]

When one looks at what was said in the B.I. there is no mention of electric boat winch. It seems to make very clear that is was the boat davits of Titanic been tested. All I can think Bob Read was base on Olympic davits and may be they had discovered a fault with them and corrected for Titanic davits.
WILLIAM HENRY CHANTLER, Sworn. Examined by Mr. ROWLATT
24031. You are a ship Surveyor in the Marine Department of the Board of Trade stationed at Belfast? - Yes.
24032. Your duties are to survey ships for various purposes, but in connection with the “Titanic,” I think your only duties were with regard to the boats? - Yes.
24033. All you did was with regard to the boats? - To inspect the boats while building in the boat builder’s shop.
24034. You have served your Apprenticeship as a shipwright? - Yes.
24035. Including boat building? - Including boat building.
24036. Then you were an Admiralty draughtsman? - Subsequently to my Apprenticeship, yes.
24037. And you have been ship Surveyor to the Board of Trade at Belfast from the 1st March, 1895? - Yes, from the 1st March, 1895, up to the present.
24038. On the 19th May, 1911, did you receive special instructions to look closely into the construction of all new boats? - From the Board of Trade, yes.
24039. That was the 19th May, 1911? - Yes, the 19th May, 1911.
24040. Did you begin to inspect the “Titanic’s” boats on the 30th May, 1911? -Yes. INQUIRY IN TO THE LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC." pg. 1356 24041. After this? - Yes, ten days after.
24042. Did you inspect them carefully? - Yes.
24043. Fourteen lifeboats and the two other boats? - There were 14 section A boats and two of section D.
24044. Were they well made and of good material? - They were well made and of good material.
24045. Would they be safe to lower from the davits full of passengers? - I made a calculation and came to the conclusion that they would be.
24046. Now, what is the full capacity of those boats? - I think it was 618 cubic feet.
24047. How many people ought to be lowered in one of these lifeboats? - Under the statutory Rules they should carry 65.
24048. The boats that you saw, how many people would they take safely from the davits, in your judgment? -Well, as many as the statutory Rules would allow.
24049. How many; cannot you give me a number; it would save a lot of time? -A matter of 70.
24050. Is that marked on the boat in any way? - No, I do not think it is. I did not see the boats on leaving the shop, but my impression is it was not.
24051. You could produce the scantlings of the boats and the materials? - Yes, I can. Mr. Rowlatt: I do not think it is necessary to go further. The Commissioner: I do not think there has been any suggestion that the boats were not well built and of good material. Their capacity may be another thing. Mr. Rowlatt: It was with regard to their strength to carry down the passengers. The Commissioner: There is a suggestion that somebody thought there was a danger of buckling, but there was no buckling, and one of the boats is said to have gone down with seventy people in it? The Attorney-General: Your Lordship is quite right; that is the only explanation we have got of why some of the boats were lowered with comparatively few passengers; that is to say, they were not loaded with their full complement, and the explanation is what your Lordship says. The Commissioner: That is one explanation; but another is that they could not get the people into them. The Attorney-General: Yes; it does not apply to all, I agree.
24052. (Mr. Rowlatt - To the Witness.) Have you made a calculation to find what strain the boats would bear in being lowered? - Yes, I made such a calculation. The results I arrived at were that the stress at the gunwale would be 2 cwts. to the square inch, and at the keel about 2 ¼ cwts. 24053. When did you make that calculation? - After the casualty occurred.
24054. Is that more than the stress which would be brought to bear by the boat being lowered with 70 people in it? - That is the stress that would be brought to bear with 65 persons in the boat, and with the boat suspended from the davits, not water-borne.
24055. Do you say that you made a calculation that shows the boat would stand a greater stress than that produced by the people being in it or not? - The result of my calculation was that -
24056. That it would bear a greater stress? - That it would bear a greater stress.
24057. Much greater? - Considerably greater.
24058. Can you give us a percentage? - Twice as much.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

A reasonable doubt most certainly does exist. Nothing man made is flawless.

I have seen a test of the davits performed at H&W with a BoT member present of weights to 70 men, and was pass off with flying colours.

I agree that with Seumas' statement about the difference between testing in water and on the davits. But I was under the impression that those new Welin davits were tested for full people loads considering that the ships were getting larger and with greater capacity. But at the same time, one can also understand the doubts of the crew, including officers, about their ability to tolerate full loads as the davits were relatively new. I have read that many of the crew had not been trained on the use of those davits.