Any recommendation apart from these books already read?

[AlexP]

By the way, a heading of NE true was about ENE by compass. If, when Californian came to a stop around 10:30, she was facing ENE by compass as Lord implied, and if around 11:30 she was heading NE by compass, and then at 12:10 ENE by compass as Groves observed, then those observations also support a brief swing to port early on.

In other words you are alleging that for the first one and a half hours the Californian heading did not change expect a brief swing to port, but in the next 4 hours she somehow swung 225 degree in the same direction? Where such big change could have came from? The weather had not changed till around 4 a.m.
Such change is easily explained by the currents present in eddies. Airs and calms cannot explain it.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Airs and calms cannot explain it.

Why not?

 

[AlexP]

Why not?

Because if the rotation were caused by airs and calms the Californian would have been swinging back and forth for 5.5 hours. She would not have been swinging back and forth for the first 1.5 hours and then around for the last 4 hours. There was no weather to cause such a change.
Besides there is no evidence that she ever rotated in retrograde in the last 4 hours.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Alex, there was no weather condition to create a steady wind from a given direction that night. But there was ice floating on water, and slight differences in surface temperatures between ice and water near the icefield could easily create light, local convective breezes that would appear to come from differing points of the compass at random times between periods of calms. It was Stone who reported "the night being fine and clear with light airs and calms." Californian was surrounded by loose ice all the time she was stopped. The major icefield was immediately to her west about 1/4 mile off. It was there when she stopped at 10:20pm Sunday night, and it still there in the same place at 6am Monday when she started to cross the field heading westward. If Californian was caught in an eddy large enough to significantly change the compass bearing to Titanic and where Carpathia came up from, then the field of pack ice to her west would have moved with her by the same eddy. And not only that, a rotating eddy that would cause Californian to first get nearer and then move away from Titanic would change the directional trend of the icefield that was running along a line more or less northward to southward magnetic. That amount of movement of Californian needed to cause what was claimed to have been seen is quite significant. I'll have to post a pic to quantify it for you when I get the time.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Besides there is no evidence that she ever rotated in retrograde in the last 4 hours.

3:20am Alex. Carpathia's rockets were 2 points before the beam, the right on the beam, then 2 points before the beam again. That's the evidence. Of course you are free not to accept it, but there was enough separation between the last two rockets that even Stone had mentioned that the bearings for a little apart in his report. So please don't keep saying there was no evidence.

 

[AlexP]

3:20am Alex. Carpathia's rockets were 2 points before the beam, the right on the beam, then 2 points before the beam again. That's the evidence. Of course you are free not to accept it, but there was enough separation between the last two rockets that even Stone had mentioned that the bearings for a little apart in his report. So please don't keep saying there was no evidence.

I believe that there was enough separation. I do not believe that all three flashes were Carpathia’s rockets. I’ve already explained it

Masthead Lights

But not when you use a powerful telescope. I wasn't talking about using optical aids.

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

One has to interpret evidence not invent it.

 

[Mark Baber]

Been a long time since a book has been mentioned in this discussion about books.

 

[AlexP]

Alex, there was no weather condition to create a steady wind from a given direction that night. But there was ice floating on water, and slight differences in surface temperatures between ice and water near the icefield could easily create light, local convective breezes that would appear to come from differing points of the compass at random times between periods of calms. It was Stone who reported "the night being fine and clear with light airs and calms." Californian was surrounded by loose ice all the time she was stopped. The major icefield was immediately to her west about 1/4 mile off. It was there when she stopped at 10:20pm Sunday night, and it still there in the same place at 6am Monday when she started to cross the field heading westward.

Right. However the conditions you've listed did not change between 10:25 p.m. April 14 and around 3:30 a.m. or so April 15. Why the swinging changed?

If Californian was caught in an eddy large enough to significantly change the compass bearing to Titanic and where Carpathia came up from, then the field of pack ice to her west would have moved with her by the same eddy. And not only that, a rotating eddy that would cause Californian to first get nearer and then move away from Titanic would change the directional trend of the icefield that was running along a line more or less northward to southward magnetic. That amount of movement of Californian needed to cause what was claimed to have been seen is quite significant. I'll have to post a pic to quantify it for you when I get the time.

No it would not have moved. Eddies form regularly in the frontal areas and around ice fields. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Konstantin_Rogachev/publication/257831063_Satellite_observations_of_regular_eddies_in_bays_of_the_Shantar_Archipelago_Sea_of_Okhotsk/links/5cbf96a54585156cd7ad2bf1/Satellite-observations-of-regular-eddies-in-bays-of-the-Shantar-Archipelago-Sea-of-Okhotsk.pdf?origin=publication_detail
These eddies make objects that are caught in them to rotate. They will not move the ice fields.
The image I posted below was presented on the US Senate Inquiry. See how the ice field is shaped where the Californian is? It is an eddy.
If the real situation was similar to the one presented in the chart the Californian would have neen rotated and the ice field would have not changed its position. Besides as the Titanic and her lifeboats were drifting south they could have been caught by a fast Golf Stream meander or an eddy and drifted a few miles southwest.

 

[AlexP]

Been a long time since a book has been mentioned in this discussion about books.

We are actually discussing the findings and the research presented in the book, but I do not mind to move the discussion to a different thread whatever you'd suggest.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Good idea Mark. How about a new thread called 'Was Californian caught in an eddy current?'
I'll open it. Feel free to move these posts.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

One has to interpret evidence not invent it.

Once again I believe I'm being accused of inventing evidence by suggesting that the light airs and calms reported by 2/O Stone in his report to Capt.Lord was the cause of some erratic swinging of Californian by a person pushing their own pet theory. Well let's take it on in the new thread I opened here: Was Californian Caught in an Eddy?.

 

[Bob_Read]

Should the name of this website be changed to Encyclopedia Californiana?