Question At what point did they know that no ship would make it to them in time?

[Mike D726]

I've seen nothing in the record regarding "final" acknowledgment that no ships near enough were answering the wireless distress signals, or if the lack of potential rescue changed anything.
For example, I could envision the captain and senior officers checking at the wireless room every few minutes.
By 1:00 a.m., the rate of sinking was obvious and the calls had been going out for some time. They had only a little over an hour more.
One may wonder why the captain did not order every lifeboat to be filled to capacity as quickly as possible -- at least once it became obvious that no ship would reach them in time. Thoughts? Has anyone seen this topic mentioned in testimony at all?

 

[Jim Currie]

Sorry, Jim but I'm still with Bob on this.

The vital paperwork regarding the Titanic's alleged davit tests (if they were actually carried out) is not known to exist. Nobody can say for definite that they took place or if they did, what the results were.

I want to see that bit of paper. It's that simple.

If such documentation is ever found and the results support the original boat capacity, then I will hold my hands up and admit I was badly wrong. And hey, you never know, Paul Lee claims he has found some unseen Titanic material that he hopes to reveal later this year, so may get to have such satisfaction !

On your final point, Jim, regarding Wellin. It wouldn't be the first time or the last that a company took its eye off the ball during the manufacturing side of things.

I'm sure you must have come across the occasional bit of supposedly brand new but nonetheless suspect piece of ship's machinery or safety gear when you were a MAI ?

Seamus.

If you and Bob knew the amount of bureaucracy involved with the Certification and Registration of an Immigrant ship back in the old days (or any other ship for that matter) then you would understand what I am trying to get across.
Titanic and Olympic were not built to class, in fact Harland & Wolff claimed their standards were even stricter than the Classification Societies. If so, there is no way these Davits were not tested...each one... in situe..by a Government Surveyor. (paper or no paper).
However, if you are happy - so be it.

 

[James Murdoch]

Thanks for clearing up gents--just looking for some clarification: as part of getting a seaworthiness certificate would a mock lowering of the lifeboats be required? And would it be required that they were filled to capacity. It is interesting to note that the boats descended only about 5ft per minute, and did incorporate revolutionary davit design at the time, I am sure. Are there any records of her lifeboat mock lowering in sea trial results/H&W documentation?

Regards to all,

JM

 

[Jim Currie]

I fear you are wrong captain Currie.

This conversation happened at lifeboat number 3, while Mr. Ismay his sudden panic-attack where he shouted: "Lower away! Lower Away! Lower Away" over and over again with one hand on the Welin Davit and the other on the in the air, spinning it about happened at lifeboat number 5, about ten minutes before lifeboat number 3 was loaded. Despite not having seen one other, Mr. Ismay and Thomas Andrews Jr were both active in this area and assisted the officer's with loading the lifeboat number 5 and 3 respectively. Ismay during this conversation said nothing except the repeating of "Lower away!" and it doesn't match the conversation as recalled by Albert Dick.

Good evening, Thomas.

Lowe told the UK Inquiry that his initial movements were that he was late on deck and went around funnel 2 to boat No.7. then to 5, and finally 1.
He also mentioned that Ismay left him and went off to boat 3 but he could not remember what boat Pitman was in. He told the US Inquiry he started at boat 5 However, Pitman was working at boat 5 and said that when it was loaded, Ismay urged him to lower away. but Pitman went to Smith before he did so. By that time, boat 7 was loaded.
Only when he got permission to lower away, did Pitman return to find that Murdoch had finished at boat 7 and had moved to 5 (with Lowe?). I suggest that by that time, Ismay had moved to 3 and that is where Lowe found him when he had finished sending off Pitman in 5. in fact Lowe suggested that was the case

There is no sworn evidence that Andrews was at boat 3 at that time. That is why I queried the evidence of that passenger.
However, since Smith had returned to the bridge when Pitman found him there is every possibility that Andrews returned with him and that is when the passenger saw him.

I hope you are feeling better - take care.

 

[Thomas Krom]

There is no sworn evidence that Andrews was at boat 3 at that time.

There is indeed no sworn statement at the inquiries, however according personal statements of Mr. and Mrs. Dick he helped them near lifeboat number 3 and even brought them to lifeboat number 3 before they were loaded in. In their later life the couple stated that they owned their lives to one-another, their saloon steward Victor Jones and Thomas Andrews Jr.

Good evening, Thomas.

Lowe told the UK Inquiry that his initial movements were that he was late on deck and went around funnel 2 to boat No.7. then to 5, and finally 1.
He also mentioned that Ismay left him and went off to boat 3 but he could not remember what boat Pitman was in. He told the US Inquiry he started at boat 5 However, Pitman was working at boat 5 and said that when it was loaded, Ismay urged him to lower away. but Pitman went to Smith before he did so. By that time, boat 7 was loaded.
Only when he got permission to lower away, did Pitman return to find that Murdoch had finished at boat 7 and had moved to 5 (with Lowe?). I suggest that by that time, Ismay had moved to 3 and that is where Lowe found him when he had finished sending off Pitman in 5. in fact Lowe suggested that was the case

Yet however Ismay never had a conversation with Lowe about a question "of how many more women could be squeezed into the boats that remained", Mr. Ismay intervened fifth officer Lowe, who at the time assisted Murdoch with the chaotic lowering of lifeboat number 5.

However, since Smith had returned to the bridge when Pitman found him there is every possibility that Andrews returned with him and that is when the passenger saw him.

That's impossible I fear. Before Thomas Andrews Jr was seen at lifeboat number 3 he assisted a fellow table companion (however not during all dinners) named Eleanor Cassebeer into lifeboat number 5. He just came up from B-deck at this point since he was seen by first class saloon steward Edenser Edward Wheelton just as lifeboat number 7 came down (Wheelton saw the lifeboat coming down through the windows on B-deck, which he mistakenly refers to as lifeboat number 5, while he names the actual lifeboat number 5 number 7). Thomas Andrews Jr before his sighting on B-deck was helping with the mustering of the passengers, giving stewardesses the advise to put on their lifebelt, giving instruction to his bedroom steward, telling the senior cashier of the á la carte restaurant that the ship was indeed sinking and telling passengers to put on their lifebelt.

I hope you are feeling better - take care.

I am afraid I am not feeling any better. We currently have Covid-19 in our family home, with my father, sister and younger brother being infected by the virus. The reason however that I feel such unwell for about half a year now is the disappearance of my beloved ex-girlfriend Kate Powell, she disappeared without a trace and I am such worried about her safety and well being.


I am terribly sorry if I sounded a bit harsh in my counter-argument, I do not intend anyone harm.


Kind regards,


Thomas

 

[James Murdoch]

Sorry to hear that Thomas, sending you my best and good wishes

 

[Thomas Krom]

Sorry to hear that Thomas, sending you my best and good wishes

Thank you James, it means a lot. I pray I will hear anything from her at all since for nearly half a year I've been worried out of my mind.

 

[Jim Currie]

Thanks for clearing up gents--just looking for some clarification: as part of getting a seaworthiness certificate would a mock lowering of the lifeboats be required? And would it be required that they were filled to capacity. It is interesting to note that the boats descended only about 5ft per minute, and did incorporate revolutionary davit design at the time, I am sure. Are there any records of her lifeboat mock lowering in sea trial results/H&W documentation?

Regards to all,

JM

Hello James.

Before Titanic left Southampton, the crew were mustered to boat stations.
Under the supervision of the BoT Surveyor, Two lifeboats were fully loaded with crew and lowered to the water.
However, these were not strength tests.

Take a look at the transcript of the UK Inquiry relative to the evidence given by Alexander Carlisle- Naval Architect and Member o the Advisory Committee to the BoT - starting around Q21267. There, you will see that the davits fitted on Titanic and Olympic as built were designed to handle 2 sets of boats and had been specially constructed by the Welin Company after consultation with the Owners, Builders and BoT.

 

[Jim Currie]

There is indeed no sworn statement at the inquiries, however according personal statements of Mr. and Mrs. Dick he helped them near lifeboat number 3 and even brought them to lifeboat number 3 before they were loaded in. In their later life the couple stated that they owned their lives to one-another, their saloon steward Victor Jones and Thomas Andrews Jr.

Yet however Ismay never had a conversation with Lowe about a question "of how many more women could be squeezed into the boats that remained", Mr. Ismay intervened fifth officer Lowe, who at the time assisted Murdoch with the chaotic lowering of lifeboat number 5.

That's impossible I fear. Before Thomas Andrews Jr was seen at lifeboat number 3 he assisted a fellow table companion (however not during all dinners) named Eleanor Cassebeer into lifeboat number 5. He just came up from B-deck at this point since he was seen by first class saloon steward Edenser Edward Wheelton just as lifeboat number 7 came down (Wheelton saw the lifeboat coming down through the windows on B-deck, which he mistakenly refers to as lifeboat number 5, while he names the actual lifeboat number 5 number 7). Thomas Andrews Jr before his sighting on B-deck was helping with the mustering of the passengers, giving stewardesses the advise to put on their lifebelt, giving instruction to his bedroom steward, telling the senior cashier of the á la carte restaurant that the ship was indeed sinking and telling passengers to put on their lifebelt.


I am afraid I am not feeling any better. We currently have Covid-19 in our family home, with my father, sister and younger brother being infected by the virus. The reason however that I feel such unwell for about half a year now is the disappearance of my beloved ex-girlfriend Kate Powell, she disappeared without a trace and I am such worried about her safety and well being.


I am terribly sorry if I sounded a bit harsh in my counter-argument, I do not intend anyone harm.


Kind regards,


Thomas

Anxiety is a harsh punisher, Thomas.
I know that all your friends here on the site will feel your anxiety and wish for a good outcome for you.

 

[Mike Spooner]

Two lifeboats were fully loaded with crew and lowered to the water?
If one read the transcript 8 crew members and 1 officer were in the boats. That is far from 65 fully loaded!
In many ways this is the root of the problem that the Board of Trade has failed to make a boat drill as regulation with full loads.
I see this rather clashes with another ongoing thread most negligent captain on the night. The half filled lifeboats where officers are doing there best. But only if the BoT had made boat boat drill as a requirement and fully loaded a lot of the problems the officers faced would had some practical beforehand.

 

[Jim Currie]

The BoT had two on-site tests:

1. To test the entire system with a fully loaded boat suspended over the water.
2. To test the ability of the crew to prepare, launch and man a lifboat.
You are talking about No.2 which had nothing to do with the disaster

The main fault of the BoT was that they did not keep up with the rapid change in ship construction -they did not upgrade their test to consider the problems raised by time v load and lowering method.
i.e. the maximum time during which the load might be lowered, and the method of lowering.

 

[Mike Spooner]

BoT had to take there part in the blame and responsibilities in the lack lifeboat of procedures.
The BoT have the ultimate power over the shipping companies as it was Government law to have the certificate of clearance of seaworthy ships before going into services for paying passengers. As I see there procedures for lifeboat drill was of a poor standard. In fact lifeboat drill wasn't even required and left to the shipping companies sort out there own procedures. It all very well for the BoT to pass off lifeboats and davits with weights above water which seems went well in Belfast. Even to the point theoretical calculation that could carry twice the numbers. Just when it couldn't get any worse this valuable information was never pass on to Smith and his officers when on Olympic to.
But how about testing with humans? I can see with 65 in a boat has its own challenges with a mixture of man and women and a different ages in a ability to. BoT was in charge of the seaworthy certificates therefore should of include testing with real people. As what happen on Titanic the poor officers would land up as be use the guinea pigs to sort this mess out. Clearly the BoT regulations where years out of dates and would take the Titanic disaster to change them.

 

[James Murdoch]

I agree with you Mike. However as Jim pointed out the sheer pace of technological advancement seriously caught the BoT out, for example in them requiring a ship to have an amount of lifeboats sufficient for 1060 people when liners were crossing the atlantic with double that, instead of specifying there needed to be enough for every soul on board. Although regarding my latter point, even if Titanic did have ample lifeboats, I very much doubt she would have time to launch them.

I dont know much about Lusitania and Mauritania--just wondering what Cunards approach to lifeboats were--were they similar to White Stars approach in that as long as it met BoT requirements we are good to go?

Regards as always,

JM

 

[Seumas]

I dont know much about Lusitania and Mauritania--just wondering what Cunards approach to lifeboats were--were they similar to White Stars approach in that as long as it met BoT requirements we are good to go?

They were about the same for the Lusitania and Mauritania. Maybe just slightly more or slightly less.

Another of Cunard's 1912 fleet, Carmania, I think had only lifeboats for about 30% of those on board.

It also wasn't, as some writers such as Wynn Craig Wade have wrongly claimed, that only arrogant British shipping companies were being reckless with lifeboats.

Cunard and White Star's big German rivals Hamburg-America and NGL were also equipping many of their passenger liners with lifeboats for 1/2 or 1/3 of those on board. Holland America were not much better either.

The French Line usually had lifeboats about 3/4 of their passengers and crew but even then still fell short of 100%.

 

[Mike Spooner]

Add to the out of date lifeboat regulations for liners, but for a cargo ship just like Californian with a crew of 55 and had a licence for 47 passengers=102. Yet had lifeboat capacity for 200. Work that one out BoT!

 

[tsullivan0568]

No problem. I can accept your critique and that of the others. 466 plus or minus a few which is approx 40% is empty spaces that could of been filled. 60% full would be a D- on performance. I stand by what I said earlier in regards to loading of the boats. I'll leave it at that. Cheers.

Fair enough.