August H Weikman

  • Thread starter Charles Provost
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Daniel Rosenshine (Danielr)

Guest
Hi!

Had the man been Astor, Mr Weikman would certainly have remembered him by name. If the man's worth was under or over estimated at 5 000 000 pounds by a person, he was still trying to say that the man was worth a fair bit. I doubt that Harris was worth 5 000 000. Harris was known amongst the passengers, and I'm sure Weikman would have known him too.

Roebling is often mistaken with his father, but never the less the family fortune was 5 000 000. Perhaps the man in question is Mr Roebling. His body was never recovered, but then again, he might not have been wearing a lifebelt.

I quite like the Molson theory as well.

Daniel.
 
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Mike Herbold

Member
Wait just a darn minute here. Molson would be my sentimental favorite, too, because of the beer connection. But he wasn't any richer than Beattie, and we still have the fact that Beattie's body ended up in the boat.
Mike
 
Mike Poirier

Mike Poirier

Member
Mike:
Beattie didn't expire till the very end. Had he expired before that time, he probably would have been toppled over board.
 
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Charles Provost

Member
Astor and Beattie were not our men. Astor would have been recognized and Beattie expired at the very end and was not toppled overboard. I do not like the Roebling theory, but it's a possibility. Molson fit very well the role. He was the richest canadian on board and we don't know his exact fate. He was known to be a good swimmer and could have swam to boat A. Yes, the Molson theory is my favorite too.

Now, does someone ever think that the man could have been Emil Brandeis? Regards,

Charles
 
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Daniel Rosenshine (Danielr)

Guest
We may hypothesise all we like, I could list all the rich men that are unaccounted for to being in a boat or how they died. The body of the man in question may have been recovered or may have not, thus we cannot pinpoint any particular person unless further proof may be found.

For the mean time, who that person was is anyone's guess.

Daniel.
 
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jason

Member
As far as Weikman's testimony, I would not take the $5 million figure dogmatically. All that can really be drawn about the man from Weikman was that he was a wealthy first-class passenger who was well-known enough to be pointed out. That alone could be just about anybody.

However, there are other indications that an unidentified first-class passenger was on board Collapsible A who died. The man wearing only BVDs, for instance. I am thinking that he did not survive --- this could not have been Beattie since he was wearing evening clothes. Abelseth also remembered a 1st class passenger who said he had a wife and child --- this does not match either Beattie, Rheims, Williams, or even Daly (who had 8-18), the only 1st class men known to have possibly been on A.

If we take a risk and combine Weikman's and Abelseth's testimony, then from the millionaires Charles Provost listed we can elimiated Roebling, Rheims, Brandeis, Harris, and Widener (since Weikman knew him); also Molson. That leaves only Isidor Straus and John B. Thayer. However, I am sure that those men were not the only millionaires on Titanic, so that, unless any new information turns up, it is unlikely we will ever identify with certainty Weikman's rich man.
 
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Daniel Rosenshine (Danielr)

Guest
If we are reffering to the man that was wearing unerwear, I doubt that Thayer or Widener were very underdressed. Thayer definitely was well clothed, and I don't doubt that Widener was as well.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi Everyone,

Excuse my exteme lateness to this discussion but it seems too good to resist. The fascinating phenomenon of how 1st class passengers died has always intrigued me, but it is rarely touched upon.
This is my effort to revive it:

Firstly, I would agree with Jason in not taking 5,000,000 too "dramatically". "First class" is enough to work on.
It seems to me that Weikman, in mentioning that he had "shaved" the passenger in the morning, suggests it is unlikely that our man was bearded. Otherwise Weikman would use a different expression. It sort of implies that he was clean-shaven. This rules out Astor, Molson, Thayer, George D. Widener and Brandeis. If he was plunged over the side, devoid of life-jacket, Harry Widener, Washington Roebling and Henry B. Harris emerge as possibilities.
Something has troubled me for a while. We know that Rheims and Beattie made it to A, but what of their companions. McCaffry and Loring for example were in an ideal position to make it to the boat. I think it was Michael P. who told me recently that Rheims and Loring stripped down to their underwear before taking the plunge. Ableseth could be refering to Loring or Rheims as the man with a wife and child. If Loring was clean-shaven (and if we ignore 5,000,00) he could me the man who died.
I'm certain that Beattie was the man Ableseth told to "brace up". "New Jersey" was just a mistake.
Don Lynch said that a man asked Williams if he could rest on his shoulder as he felt "so cold and tired". Could this be the same person?

As to the deaths of other passengers, I have tried to establish who died with who and how. But this was in vain as the bodies were spread evenly. The only passengers whose deaths we can account for are Clinch Smith, Milton Long, Thomson Beattie,Duane Williams and Isidor Straus. Possibly Astor, Widener and Thayer also.
Does anyone know of ny rare accounts or have any suggestions as to how people met their fate.

I share Charles' frustration about Henry Harris. I think he may have stuck with Brandeis and Baumann with whom he had dined that night.

If anyone is still interested in this, please reply.
Sorry about the length

Regards

Ben
 
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Jason Bidwell

Guest
Hey Ben,

I doubt that Beattie was Abelseth's "New Jerseyman." First off, as I recall, Abelseth said he first met that man on an English train heading to the dock in Southampton. That makes it unlikely that Abelseth's New Jerseyman was a first class passenger, and also rules out Beattie, since Beattie boarded the Titanic at Cherbourg. Whoever compiled the list of the people on Collapsible A on this site seems to think that the New Jerseyman was Arthur Keefe, though on what evidence I cannot say.

Your suggestion of Loring as the underwear-clad man has a lot of merit if Loring was witnessed to strip down before abandoning ship; on the other hand, his brother-in-law George Rheims was on A, and as far as I know didn't see him there - this doesn't rule Loring out, but it doesn't help his case either.

McCaffry's body was recovered, fully clothed, so he could not have been the first class passenger in the underwear, if - a big if - that individual is who both Abelseth and Weikman were talking about.

Based on Weikman's account, you are quite right that we should be looking for an unbearded man. But should we exclude Thayer senior on that evidence? As I recall, he had a moustache, but not a beard, and so he could very well have had a shave from Weikman.

Jason Bidwell
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi Jason,

That's a good point about the improbability of a 1st class passenger sharing a cabin with a 3rd class.
However, have you read "Titanic, the Canadian story" by Alan Hustak?
Quote:"The following morning, April 10, 1912, Sloper joined the Fortunes, Ross, Beattie, and McCaffry and took the boat train to Southampton. As they boarded at Southampton and took the boat train, I won't rule him out for now. In any case, that man died very late i.e well into the morning so his body would have been left on collapsible
A.
I don't think McCaffry was the underwear-clad man but he may have been aboard col. A. Perhaps he was the man mentioned by Williams who was lowered over the side.
If Weikman knew George D. Widener we can eliminate him. Thayer is a possibility, moustaches considered!

What about Herbert Fuller Chaffee?

Regards
Ben
 
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Jason Bidwell

Guest
Ben,

I've never read Hustak's book, but if he says Beattie and McCaffry boarded the ship at Southampton then I think he is in error. Although the Fortunes and Sloper embarked at Southampton, the ET biography of McCaffry states that he and Beattie both boarded at Cherbourg (sharing the same room) and Eaton & Haas' "Titanic: Triumph and Tragedy" also lists both men as coming on board from Cherbourg.

McCaffry may very well have been aboard A - since his friend Beattie made it, he was presumably in a decent position to reach it. I don't have many of my books where I'm working from, so I don't really know who you mean by "the man mentioned by Williams who was lowered over the side." If all Williams said about him was that he "was lowered over the side" then we should keep in mind that there are 1000 other candidates for the man "lowered over the side"!

John B. Thayer is my personal favorite for the unidentified 1st class passenger in Collapsible A; I can't prove it, I just think he fits the available evidence better than most. Of course, if it wasn't him, then I'm completely wrong.

Herbert Chaffee is a good candidate as well. Evidently his holdings amounted to $150 million in today's money, but what that translates to in 1912 money I have no idea.

I suppose the descriptions of this mysterious rich man aboard A are too vague and imcomplete to ever reach any positive conclusions about it; there are too many possibilities. But it's better that talking about Rigel, anyway.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi Jason,

It's interesting about the boarding of the Canadians. Did the Thayers really board at Chrebourg? I am confused because Marion Thayer posted a letter on the ship. "Jack got 5 photos of it"..If this refers to the New York near miss, they must have boarded at Southampon.

I think Thayer is one of the stronger possibilities, although I have always thought he died when the poop deck became too steep after the ship had snapped. (Gracie was the last survivor to see Thayer and the Wideners shortly after the lowering of Col. D.

Is there a photo of Herbert Chaffe. Does anyone know if he was bearded?

Although it is a bit of a needle in a haystack, I hope we can continue this line of investigation, and branches of it.

Regards
Ben
 
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Jason Bidwell

Guest
Ben,

In his account of the shipwreck written in later life, Jack Thayer said that he and his family boarded the Titanic at Southampton (and he describes the New York incident, although mistakenly calling the ship "Oceanic"), so I assume that must be where they got on. Eaton & Haas do place them at Cherbourg, but unless they have special information, or Thayer was being fanciful, we should probably accept Thayer's own word.

Your idea of how Thayer might have died is just as valid as mine. He might have frozen to death. Or been crushed by a funnel. Or been beaten to death by Gamin de Pycombe. No one knows. It's these mysteries (and the accompanying scraps of evidence) that make the story interesting.

I know nothing more about Chaffee than what can be found on this site. If anyone does have a Chaffee photo I would hope they would get it placed on this site.

Jason
 
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