James B

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Otherwise, I think the lookouts were confused as to why they did not see the berg in time and knew the finger of blame would be pointed in their direction. Given the loss of life - can anyone blame Lee for his tale of mist or (mystery)?
I agree with the old gezzer on this one, I bet the tales of the key and the drunk officer stories started from them.
 
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Jim Currie

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Jim how common are Atlantic hazes and what months of the year do they occur?
To be accurate, haze does not occur in mid ocean. Mike.
Mist however, can occur at most times of the year wherever warm moist air becomes cooled. However, the most prevalent time is Spring through to early summer in both hemispheres. Fog and varying types of cloud are simply relatives of mist. The worst places for fog and mist in Spring early summer that I have sailed in, are the seas around the UK, The Grand Bank and near to northern maritime coasts of the US and Canada.
 
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>>This reason seem to be more logical.<<
A mirage? If the conditions for a mirage existed at all it wouldn't be seen as such that late at night because there was not enough light reflected off the sea that could be bent to create a false horizon. The sea was ink black. Besides, any false horizon that could be created would be behind the berg, therefore it could not hide or obscure the object in front of it. I told that to Tim Maltin years ago and he ignored the point completely.
 
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Seumas

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>>This reason seem to be more logical.<<
A mirage? If the conditions for a mirage existed at all it wouldn't be seen as such that late at night because there was not enough light reflected off the sea that could be bent to create a false horizon. The sea was ink black. Besides, any false horizon that could be created would be behind the berg, therefore it could not hide or obscure the object in front of it. I told that to Tim Maltin years ago and he ignored the point completely.
In the last ten years Mr Maltin has certainly established himself here in the UK as the "go to man" for TV and radio when they need some Titanic info but he's a poor historian of the subject. On more than one occasion he has repeated a lot of old myths such as the rudder being too small, steel being inferior etc.

They never seem to pick up the phone and ask Mark Chirnside, Dan Parkes or Paul Lee to speak for some strange reason.

Maltin also released a Titanic book in 2012 that was very poor indeed.

Contrary to his claims that there was "long unseen material" in it there were in fact zero fresh accounts. Just selected snippets from the testimony of a dozen or so survivors that are all easily found in other books and online. Half of it in fact was just lengthy excepts from Beesley and Gracie's books.

Maltin's book is also more expensive than the handy, cheap Dover Maritime Press omnibus containing the full, unabridged texts of both Beesley and Gracie's respective books plus the relevant chapters from Lightollers autobiography concerning the Titanic.

Tim Maltin is probably a nice bloke but I'm not a fan.
 
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James B

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Take heed of "old gezzers), you might learn something you thought you knew about and didn't. ;)
Yes, Iam learning things like what was on the 1st class menu, what water they served and how kate and leo got to the bow, very intresting.
>>This reason seem to be more logical.<<
A mirage? If the conditions for a mirage existed at all it wouldn't be seen as such that late at night because there was not enough light reflected off the sea that could be bent to create a false horizon. The sea was ink black. Besides, any false horizon that could be created would be behind the berg, therefore it could not hide or obscure the object in front of it. I told that to Tim Maltin years ago and he ignored the point completely.
Its all theories, no one can know for sure but does it really matter? Titanic was not acar that you can turn or stop at once, In flat calm even without haze or other phenomena it would have been hard not to collide with the Iceberg at high speed, the advance of the Titanic was 836 meters, meaning to avoid acollision they should have taken action at adistance greater then that, impossible under the prevailing conditions, they had to be looking at the exact direction few minutes before to have aslight chance of an early detection, without binoculars (or the practice of using them) even the slight chance was non existent.

The bottom line is they sighted the danger at around 400 meters +-, the ship was doomed when the sparky ignored the last Ice warning. Adebate on the lookouts as amajor factor equals to asituation where acar driver which is over speeding see a kid infront of him and have to decide in asplit second if to run him over or go off road and hit a tree, the only way to avoid asituation like this is to drive responsibly, speed always killed, it was true before, it is true today, without precautions full speed=fools speed.
 
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Mike Spooner

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You can't beat Tim Maltin for his enthusiastic lectures indeed. But does make blundering mistakes at times. When it come to his own theories of atmospheric weather condition theories. One has to wander is he trying to baffle us over science, that it was a mirage refraction image is why Titanic did not see the iceberg in time! As reading a Meteorological report on the subject there conclusion none of Maltin key statements holds water!
 

Jim Currie

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In the last ten years Mr Maltin has certainly established himself here in the UK as the "go to man" for TV and radio when they need some Titanic info but he's a poor historian of the subject. On more than one occasion he has repeated a lot of old myths such as the rudder being too small, steel being inferior etc.

They never seem to pick up the phone and ask Mark Chirnside, Dan Parkes or Paul Lee to speak for some strange reason.

Maltin also released a Titanic book in 2012 that was very poor indeed.

Contrary to his claims that there was "long unseen material" in it there were in fact zero fresh accounts. Just selected snippets from the testimony of a dozen or so survivors that are all easily found in other books and online. Half of it in fact was just lengthy excepts from Beesley and Gracie's books.

Maltin's book is also more expensive than the handy, cheap Dover Maritime Press omnibus containing the full, unabridged texts of both Beesley and Gracie's respective books plus the relevant chapters from Lightollers autobiography concerning the Titanic.

Tim Maltin is probably a nice bloke but I'm not a fan.
Tim is not alone in his treatment of Titanic evidence, Seamas. Like the majority of self-declared historians, whose work I have seen and read, he has limited technical knowledge, so latches onto something, which for him, has no obvious explanation. Then, like the image bending action of a mirage, he bends his limited knowledge and comprehension to fit an "Ah! That's really why that happened" moment. He is aided and abetted by those who know better but for whom, association with a TV Documentary is more important than establishing truth.
This kind of analysis of an historical event is the reason why there are so many books about Titanic which have differing theories and why you will find a dearth of professional mariners contributing to these pages.
In the early days, Captains Eric Woods, and Charlie Weeks as well as Paul Lee were regular contributors but as the "Eureka!" historians multiplied, they faded away.
Straight-forward common sense answers are far too boring and in many cases, incomprehensible to lay-persons.
On the other hand, intrigue, conspiracy, lies and deceit, mixed in with a penchant for gossip, was, and still is, a familiar recipe and easier to digest by laypersons.
They also adds to wealth and fame. ;)
 

Jim Currie

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They already knew and expected to encounter ice that night. That point is in the historical record. It wasn't a matter of if they would encounter ice, it was just a matter of exactly when and what form.
Not exactly. It was all up to Smith. He was aware that ice had been reported to the northward of his planned track in that region 18+ hours previously. Smith also knew (as would anyone frequenting that area in spring) that if the ice behaved according to form, the heavy stuff would be long -gone when Titanic arrived in the area. However, he also knew that there was a possibility of stragglers in the form of small ice and even an occasional growler. Growlers are hard to see in any conditions. The berg Titanic hit was a"teenager" as icebergs go.
 

James B

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They already knew and expected to encounter ice that night. That point is in the historical record. It wasn't a matter of if they would encounter ice, it was just a matter of exactly when and what form.
Ice warnings were taken for granted by the wireless operators of the Titanic, the Californian messege with thier position which was close to the Titanic would have given Captain Smith aclear red light that there was danger ahead and mybe he would have decided to slow down but some one decided that personal messeges were more important.
 
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Thomas Krom

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Ice warnings were taken for granted, some may have been off route but the Californian messege with thier position which was close to the Titanic would have given Captain Smith aclear red light that there was danger ahead and he might had decided to slow down but some one decided that personal messeges were more important.
It is a big misconception that the ice warnings were taken for granted. Captain Smith held a meeting with nearly all the officer's (except Murdoch who was having his lunch at the time) that informed them that they would be nearing ice in the evening. The icewarning earlier send and retrieved by the RMS Baltic on the same day ("From s.s. 'Baltic,' April 14th, to Captain Smith, Titanic, Have had mod var winds and clear fine weather since leaving. Greek steamer Athenai reports passing icebergs and large quantities of field ice today in lat. 41 51 N., long. 49 52 W. Last night we spoke German oil-tank steamer Deutschland, Stettin to Philadelphia, not under control, short of coal, lat. 40 42 N. long. 55 11 W. Wishes to be reported to New York and other steamers. Wish you and Titanic all success. - Commander.") was in fact nearer the icefield in which the Titanic would enter than the icewarning of the Calafornian.



1620852612625.png

Position given by the Baltic (41 51 N., long. 49 52 W) send at 13:57
1620852696176.png

Position given by the Californian (42 3 N, 49 9 W) send at 19:30

Later at about 23:00 the Californian tried to send another ice warning to the Titanic ("MGY MGY MGY MWL Say, old man, we are stopped and surrounded by ice.") and got the response "Shut up, shut up, I am busy; I am working Cape Race. You are jamming my signal".

Imagine you are John "Jack" George Phillips that night:
* You are awake for nearly 30 hours without nearly any sleep. You want Harold Bride to take over your shift so you can finally catch some sleep.
* Harold Bride and you just finished the apparatus inside the silent room so that the maximum nautical range is enlarged. However still have a large traffic of passengers message you need to send while coming into reach of Cape Race.
* Suddenly, just at the beginning of your final hour for that day, you get your ears blown off by a ship that gives you information of nearby icebergs, without a position unlike the other ships. The deck crew are already aware about everything and now you get the same news again.

Second officer Lightoller gave sixth officer Moody orders to call the lookouts (which at the time were Archie Jewell and George Symons) and report to them to keep a sharp lookout for small ice until daylight and pass the word along to the other lookout men. This conversation is not just mentioned by Lightoller but also by quartermaster Hichens:
Senator SMITH. Did you admonish the lookout men?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Yes
Senator SMITH. What did you say to them?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I told the sixth officer, Mr. Moody, to ring up the crow's nest and tell them to keep a sharp lookout for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. That was received and replied to - and also to pass the word along.
Senator SMITH. How do you know it was replied to?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Because I could hear it.
Senator SMITH. You heard it yourself?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Yes

LIGHTOLLER.
I thought it was a necessary precaution. That is a message I always send along when approaching the vicinity of ice or a derelict, as the case may be... I told Mr. Moody to ring up the crow’s-nest and tell the look-outs to keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. Mr. Moody rang them up and I could hear quite distinctly what he was saying. He said, “Keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice,” or something like that, and I told him, I think, to ring up again and tell them to keep a sharp look out for ice particularly small ice and growlers. And he rang up the second time and gave the message correctly."


Mr. HICHENS.
I went on watch at 8 o'clock. The officers on the watch were the second officer, Mr. Lightoller, senior in command; the fourth officer, Mr. Boxhall; and the sixth officer, Mr. Moody. My first orders when I got on the bridge was to take the second officer's compliments down to the ship's carpenter [Maxwell or Hutchinson] and inform him to look to his fresh water; that it was about to freeze. I did so. On the return to the bridge, I had been on the bridge about a couple of minutes when the carpenter came back and reported the duty carried out. Standing by waiting for another message - it is the duty of the quartermaster to strike the bell every half hour - as the stand-by quarter- master, sir, I heard the second officer repeat to Mr. Moody, the sixth officer, to speak through the telephone, warning the lookout men in the crow's nest to keep a sharp lookout for small ice until daylight and pass the word along to the other lookout men. The next order I received from the second officer was to go and find the deck engineer and bring him up with a key to open the heaters up in the corridor of the officers quarters, also the wheelhouse and the chart room, on account of the intense cold. At a quarter to 10 I called the first officer, Mr. Murdoch, to let him know it was one bell, which is part of our duty; also took the thermometer and barometer, the temperature of the water, and the log. At 10 o'clock I went to the wheel, sir. Mr. Murdoch come up to relieve Mr. Lightoller. I had the course given me from the other quartermaster, north 71 west, which I repeated to him, and he went and reported it to the first officer or the second officer in charge, which he repeated back - the course, sir. All went along very well until 20 minutes to 12, when three gongs came from the lookout, and immediately afterwards a report on the telephone, "Iceberg right ahead." The chief officer rushed from the wing to the bridge, or I imagine so, sir. Certainly I am inclosed in the wheelhouse, and I can not see, only my compass. He rushed to the engines. I heard the telegraph bell ring; also give the order "Hard astarboard," with the sixth officer standing by me to see the duty carried out and the quartermaster standing by my left side. Repeated the order, "Hard astarboard. The helm is hard over, sir."


With all due respect but it is a misconception that captain Smith and the officer's didn't took the ice warnings serious.
 
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Seumas

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James, for the third time of asking, what books (or documentaries) are you using as sources ?

Clearly, whatever you are using is full of errors and myths.
 
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Cam Houseman

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It is a big misconception that the ice warnings were taken for granted. Captain Smith held a meeting with nearly all the officer's (except Murdoch who was having his lunch at the time) that informed them that they would be nearing ice in the evening. The icewarning earlier send and retrieved by the RMS Baltic on the same day ("From s.s. 'Baltic,' April 14th, to Captain Smith, Titanic, Have had mod var winds and clear fine weather since leaving. Greek steamer Athenai reports passing icebergs and large quantities of field ice today in lat. 41 51 N., long. 49 52 W. Last night we spoke German oil-tank steamer Deutschland, Stettin to Philadelphia, not under control, short of coal, lat. 40 42 N. long. 55 11 W. Wishes to be reported to New York and other steamers. Wish you and Titanic all success. - Commander.") was in fact nearer the icefield in which the Titanic would enter than the icewarning of the Calafornian.



View attachment 76612
Position given by the Baltic (41 51 N., long. 49 52 W) send at 13:57
View attachment 76613
Position given by the Californian (42 3 N, 49 9 W) send at 19:30

Later at about 23:00 the Californian tried to send another ice warning to the Titanic ("MGY MGY MGY MWL Say, old man, we are stopped and surrounded by ice.") and got the response "Shut up, shut up, I am busy; I am working Cape Race. You are jamming my signal".

Imagine you are John "Jack" George Phillips that night:
* You are awake for nearly 30 hours without nearly any sleep. You want Harold Bride to take over your shift so you can finally catch some sleep.
* Harold Bride and you just finished the apparatus inside the silent room so that the maximum nautical range is enlarged. However still have a large traffic of passengers message you need to send while coming into reach of Cape Race.
* Suddenly, just at the beginning of your final hour for that day, you get your ears blown off by a ship that gives you information of nearby icebergs, without a position unlike the other ships. The deck crew are already aware about everything and now you get the same news again.

Second officer Lightoller gave sixth officer Moody orders to call the lookouts (which at the time were Archie Jewell and George Symons) and report to them to keep a sharp lookout for small ice until daylight and pass the word along to the other lookout men. This conversation is not just mentioned by Lightoller but also by quartermaster Hichens:
Senator SMITH. Did you admonish the lookout men?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Yes
Senator SMITH. What did you say to them?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I told the sixth officer, Mr. Moody, to ring up the crow's nest and tell them to keep a sharp lookout for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. That was received and replied to - and also to pass the word along.
Senator SMITH. How do you know it was replied to?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Because I could hear it.
Senator SMITH. You heard it yourself?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Yes

LIGHTOLLER.
I thought it was a necessary precaution. That is a message I always send along when approaching the vicinity of ice or a derelict, as the case may be... I told Mr. Moody to ring up the crow’s-nest and tell the look-outs to keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. Mr. Moody rang them up and I could hear quite distinctly what he was saying. He said, “Keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice,” or something like that, and I told him, I think, to ring up again and tell them to keep a sharp look out for ice particularly small ice and growlers. And he rang up the second time and gave the message correctly."


Mr. HICHENS.
I went on watch at 8 o'clock. The officers on the watch were the second officer, Mr. Lightoller, senior in command; the fourth officer, Mr. Boxhall; and the sixth officer, Mr. Moody. My first orders when I got on the bridge was to take the second officer's compliments down to the ship's carpenter [Maxwell or Hutchinson] and inform him to look to his fresh water; that it was about to freeze. I did so. On the return to the bridge, I had been on the bridge about a couple of minutes when the carpenter came back and reported the duty carried out. Standing by waiting for another message - it is the duty of the quartermaster to strike the bell every half hour - as the stand-by quarter- master, sir, I heard the second officer repeat to Mr. Moody, the sixth officer, to speak through the telephone, warning the lookout men in the crow's nest to keep a sharp lookout for small ice until daylight and pass the word along to the other lookout men. The next order I received from the second officer was to go and find the deck engineer and bring him up with a key to open the heaters up in the corridor of the officers quarters, also the wheelhouse and the chart room, on account of the intense cold. At a quarter to 10 I called the first officer, Mr. Murdoch, to let him know it was one bell, which is part of our duty; also took the thermometer and barometer, the temperature of the water, and the log. At 10 o'clock I went to the wheel, sir. Mr. Murdoch come up to relieve Mr. Lightoller. I had the course given me from the other quartermaster, north 71 west, which I repeated to him, and he went and reported it to the first officer or the second officer in charge, which he repeated back - the course, sir. All went along very well until 20 minutes to 12, when three gongs came from the lookout, and immediately afterwards a report on the telephone, "Iceberg right ahead." The chief officer rushed from the wing to the bridge, or I imagine so, sir. Certainly I am inclosed in the wheelhouse, and I can not see, only my compass. He rushed to the engines. I heard the telegraph bell ring; also give the order "Hard astarboard," with the sixth officer standing by me to see the duty carried out and the quartermaster standing by my left side. Repeated the order, "Hard astarboard. The helm is hard over, sir."


With all due respect but it is a misconception that captain Smith and the officer's didn't took the ice warnings serious.
well written, good work! Completely agreed
 
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James B

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It is a big misconception that the ice warnings were taken for granted. Captain Smith held a meeting with nearly all the officer's (except Murdoch who was having his lunch at the time) that informed them that they would be nearing ice in the evening.
What is your source for that meeting?
Even if he did inform what good would it do in flat calm conditions while the ship was sailing in full speed? Do you think that the officers have aright to reduce the speed without cause?
The icewarning earlier send and retrieved by the RMS Baltic on the same day ("From s.s. 'Baltic,' April 14th, to Captain Smith, Titanic, Have had mod var winds and clear fine weather since leaving. Greek steamer Athenai reports passing icebergs and large quantities of field ice today in lat. 41 51 N., long. 49 52 W. Last night we spoke German oil-tank steamer Deutschland, Stettin to Philadelphia, not under control, short of coal, lat. 40 42 N. long. 55 11 W. Wishes to be reported to New York and other steamers. Wish you and Titanic all success. - Commander.") was in fact nearer the icefield in which the Titanic would enter than the icewarning of the Calafornian.



View attachment 76612
Position given by the Baltic (41 51 N., long. 49 52 W) send at 13:57
View attachment 76613
Position given by the Californian (42 3 N, 49 9 W) send at 19:30
  • 9:40 PM
    The Mesaba sends a warning to the Titanic about an ice field that includes “heavy pack ice and [a] great number [of] large icebergs.” Wireless operator Jack Phillips—who works for the Marconi Company—is handling passengers' messages and never passes the warning on to the Titanic's bridge.
Later at about 23:00 the Californian tried to send another ice warning to the Titanic ("MGY MGY MGY MWL Say, old man, we are stopped and surrounded by ice.") and got the response "Shut up, shut up, I am busy; I am working Cape Race. You are jamming my signal".

Imagine you are John "Jack" George Phillips that night:
* You are awake for nearly 30 hours without nearly any sleep. You want Harold Bride to take over your shift so you can finally catch some sleep.
* Harold Bride and you just finished the apparatus inside the silent room so that the maximum nautical range is enlarged. However still have a large traffic of passengers message you need to send while coming into reach of Cape Race.
* Suddenly, just at the beginning of your final hour for that day, you get your ears blown off by a ship that gives you information of nearby icebergs, without a position unlike the other ships. The deck crew are already aware about everything and now you get the same news again.
Pardon me but are you saying that his actions were correct? That his tantrum is justified? No, I dont accept it. He was acting like aloose canon, his action was wrong but that wasnt his fault, there should have been systematic information transfering and monitoring by the ships officers, it was not done=taken for granted.

Second officer Lightoller gave sixth officer Moody orders to call the lookouts (which at the time were Archie Jewell and George Symons) and report to them to keep a sharp lookout for small ice until daylight and pass the word along to the other lookout men. This conversation is not just mentioned by Lightoller but also by quartermaster Hichens:
Senator SMITH. Did you admonish the lookout men?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Yes
Senator SMITH. What did you say to them?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I told the sixth officer, Mr. Moody, to ring up the crow's nest and tell them to keep a sharp lookout for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. That was received and replied to - and also to pass the word along.
Senator SMITH. How do you know it was replied to?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Because I could hear it.
Senator SMITH. You heard it yourself?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Yes

LIGHTOLLER.
I thought it was a necessary precaution. That is a message I always send along when approaching the vicinity of ice or a derelict, as the case may be... I told Mr. Moody to ring up the crow’s-nest and tell the look-outs to keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. Mr. Moody rang them up and I could hear quite distinctly what he was saying. He said, “Keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice,” or something like that, and I told him, I think, to ring up again and tell them to keep a sharp look out for ice particularly small ice and growlers. And he rang up the second time and gave the message correctly."
Charles knew it would be hard to detect ice bergs in flat calm, as amatter of fact
he said that if he got the messege from the Mesaba he would have slow down and called the Captain, just from reading what kind of aman he was I think he would have done it even if it would have pissed off the Captain.

inform him to look to his fresh water; that it was about to freeze.
Common practice in cold temperture.
I did so. On the return to the bridge, I had been on the bridge about a couple of warning the lookout men in the crow's nest to keep a sharp lookout for small ice until daylight
Ok, pardon me but whats your point? Its common to instruct and discuss with the watch keepers what is relevent during handing over the watch, it would have been strange if no order had been given and what were they expected to do with it in flat calm conditions? Thats the question you should ask yourself.
and pass the word along to the other lookout men. The next order I received from the second officer was to go and find the deck engineer and bring him up with a key to open the heaters up in the corridor of the officers quarters, also the wheelhouse and the chart room, on account of the intense cold.
Common practice in cold weather.
At a quarter to 10 I called the first officer, Mr. Murdoch, to let him know it was one bell, which is part of our duty; also took the thermometer and barometer, the temperature of the water, and the log.
At end of the watch it is common to record that data in the log.
At 10 o'clock I went to the wheel, sir. Mr. Murdoch come up to relieve Mr. Lightoller. I had the course given me from the other quartermaster, north 71 west, which I repeated to him, and he went and reported it to the first officer or the second officer in charge, which he repeated back - the course, sir. All went along very well until 20 minutes to 12, when three gongs came from the lookout, and immediately afterwards a report on the telephone, "Iceberg right ahead." The chief officer rushed from the wing to the bridge, or I imagine so, sir. Certainly I am inclosed in the wheelhouse, and I can not see, only my compass. He rushed to the engines. I heard the telegraph bell ring; also give the order "Hard astarboard," with the sixth officer standing by me to see the duty carried out and the quartermaster standing by my left side. Repeated the order, "Hard astarboard. The helm is hard over, sir."
Sorry but why is Mordochs action relevent? His actions reflect the condition of the Titanics crew, complete suprise! As if they were sleeping the whole time since they left port so how come it happen with the meetings and etc? I will answer that for you, the myth that the ship is unsinkable might have rooted inside even the Captains and his crews heads.
With all due respect but it is a misconception that captain Smith and the officer's didn't took the ice warnings serious.

Captain Smith RIP was wrong, you cant argue about that since his ship is in the bottom of the ocean. He trusted his people to supply him information but he didnt establish strict routine practices other then the common ones which didnt match the ice warnings that they recived and caused them to miss at least 2 warnings that were important.

The bottom line: He was going blind in the dark at full speed, if thats not to take for granted what is? The rest doesnt really matter, only the horrible result which cant be justified in my opinion as bad luck.

Ps: At home any one can get tantrums and say to some one keep out shut up, not at sea while hundreds of peoples lifes are on the line. Dont forget, there were 2 radio operators on board the Titanic so they had more sleep then other vessels wirless operators.
 
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James B

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James, for the third time of asking, what books (or documentaries) are you using as sources ?

Clearly, whatever you are using is full of errors and myths.
The source is shown bellow...

at least the one that counts and cant be disputed, I hope that there is no book that says otherwise, who knows, some claim that the world is flat.

Ps, sorry for being sarcastic but it seems you are anti any opinion which isnt in line with your opinion. You might know more about the small details, I accept that you read and studied about the subject but I suggest you learn about seamanship too, it is the base the understand the subject which you know alot about but the more you learn about the base/seamanship you will see that there are more questions then clear answers.
 

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Thomas Krom

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Sorry but why is Mordochs action relevent? His actions reflect the condition of the Titanics crew, complete suprise! As if they were sleeping the whole time since they left port so how come it happen with the meetings and etc? I will answer that for you, the myth that the ship is unsinkable might have rooted inside even the Captains and his crews heads.
I wanted to show you the entire quote, word for word without any alterations or cuts.
What is your source for that meeting?
Even if he did inform what good would it do in flat calm conditions while the ship was sailing in full speed? Do you think that the officers have aright to reduce the speed without cause?
Second officer Lightoller his account at the American inquiry on the fifth day based on the icewarning of the SS Caronia:
Senator SMITH.
No one called your attention to any telegram or wireless from any ship warning you of ice?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
Who?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I do not know what the telegram was. The commander came out when I was relieved for lunch, I think it was. It may have been earlier; I do not remember what time it was. I remember the commander coming out to me some time that day and showing me a telegram, and this had reference to the position of ice.

Senator SMITH.
Giving what?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
An approximate position and presumably the maximum eastern longitude.

Senator SMITH.
A warning to you, of its proximity?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Giving the position. No warning, but giving the position - a mere bald statement of fact.

Senator SMITH.
Did you regard it as a warning when you got that information?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
We get those repeatedly and various other things, and we regard them as information.

Senator SMITH.
Had you received any other warning, from the time you left Southampton, of that character?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Not that I know of.

Senator SMITH.
This was the first warning you got?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
As far as I know.

Senator SMITH.
Did it warn you?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
It informed us, naturally, and warned us.

Senator SMITH.
What did you do about it?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Worked approximately the time we should be up to this position.

Senator SMITH.
What did you find?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Somewhere around 11 o'clock.

Senator SMITH.
Did you report that fact to anyone?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I did.

Senator SMITH.
To whom?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
The first officer.

Senator SMITH.
Murdoch?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
What time?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I think when he relieved me at lunch time I spoke about it first. I spoke about it in the quarters, unofficially and I also spoke about it, naturally, when he relieved me at 10 o'clock.

Senator SMITH.
What was the conversation between you?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I remarked on the general condition of the weather, and so on, etc., and then I just mentioned as I had done previously, "We will be up around the ice somewhere about 11 o'clock, I suppose." That is all.

Senator SMITH.
That is all you said to him?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
With regard to the ice; yes.

Senator SMITH.
Did you say anything more to him about it at the time you left the watch at 10 o'clock?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you speak to the lookout?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
While you were on watch?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you admonish the lookout men?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
What did you say to them?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I told the sixth officer, Mr. Moody, to ring up the crow's nest and tell them to keep a sharp lookout for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. That was received and replied to - and also to pass the word along.

Senator SMITH.
How do you know it was replied to?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Because I could hear it.

Senator SMITH.
You heard it yourself?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
Did Mr. Moody survive?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you do anything else about it?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No, sir.

Senator SMITH.
You did not talk with the captain about it?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Nothing but the conversation I have already spoken of.


At the British inquiry he also mentioned:


13453. Do you remember Captain Smith showing you something during that time?
- Yes.

13454. Just tell us what it was?
- Captain Smith came on the bridge during the time that I was relieving Mr. Murdoch. In his hands he had a wireless message, a Marconigram. He came across the bridge, and holding it in his hands told me to read it.

13455. He showed it to you, I suppose?
- Yes, exactly; he held it out in his hand and showed it to me. The actual wording of the message I do not remember.

13456. Did you see whether it was about ice?
- It had reference to ice.

13457. Do you remember between what meridians?
- Yes, I particularly made a mental note of the meridians - 49 to 51.

13458. That would be 49 to 51 W.?
- Exactly.

13459. We have the message. I will just find it and read it to you, and perhaps you will be able to tell me if that is right. Do you know from what ship the message came?
- No, I cannot remember the ship.

The Solicitor-General:
It is better to have it now.

Sir Robert Finlay:
Yes, I think we had better have it, and the ship it came from.

The Solicitor-General:
My recollection is that the Attorney-General read it in opening.

The Commissioner:
What time was it?

13460. (The Solicitor-General.) So far, My Lord, he has said it was between 12.30 and one in the middle of the day. (To the witness.) Can you fix at all as between those times?
- About 12.45 as near as I can remember.

13461. Very well; about a quarter to 1?
- Yes.

Mr. Laing:
I have the wording of it.

The Solicitor-General:
Will you hand it to me?

Mr. Laing:
Yes.

13462. (The Solicitor-General.) I think this is the message, and perhaps I can read it to the gentleman and he will tell us if it sounds like it. (To the witness.) We have independent evidence of a message being sent from the "Caronia." "West-bound steamers report bergs, growlers and field ice in 42 N. from 49 to 51 W."?
- I think that is the message that I referred to as near as I can remember.

The Solicitor-General:
This Witness says he was shown that about a quarter to 1, My Lord. Your Lordship will find the evidence of Captain Barr, the captain of the "Caronia," who was interposed on Friday, on page 273 of the print. The question is 12307. The Attorney-General asked Captain Barr, "On the morning of the 14th of April, that is, on the Sunday morning, do you remember sending this Marconigram to the 'Titanic': 'Westbound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice in 42 N., from 49 to 51 W.?' - (A.) Yes, I remember sending it. (Q.) That is sent, I see from your note, at 9 o'clock in the morning." That is the time when the message was sent from the "Caronia."

The Commissioner:
Does it go on to say that that message was acknowledged?

13463. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, My Lord. Then the next question and answer is, "And did you receive a reply at 9.44 a.m. your ship's time? - (A.) Yes, as per that statement." (Q.) The reply is, "Thanks for message and information. Have had variable weather throughout - Smith"? (To the witness.) Now the "Caronia" as we know was coming from New York to Europe and as you see there is the message. The acknowledgment is 9.44 a.m. "Caronia's" time. You had not heard anything about that before you went off your watch at 10 o'clock?
- No.

13464. Can you help us: Would 9.44 a.m. Caronia's" time coming from New York be likely to be later than your 10 o'clock watch coming to an end? You see you went off duty at ten.
- Yes.

13465. (The Commissioner.) Did Captain Smith tell you when he had received the marconigram?
- No, My Lord.

13466. (The Solicitor-General.) And the first you knew of it was when Captain Smith showed it you at about a quarter to one?
- Yes.

13467. So far as your knowledge goes is that the first information as to ice which you had heard of as being received by the "Titanic"?
- That is the first I have any recollection of.

13468. What time of day would it be that your ship's course would be set?
- At noon.

13469. Would that be done by the Commander?
- [No Answer.]

13470. Add anything if there is anything we ought to know. Is that the incident as it occurred then?
- That is the whole of the incident, when the Commander came out and showed me the wireless, yes.

13471. And you told us you were relieving Mr. Murdoch while he was away at lunch. Did he come back?
- Yes, when he came back I mentioned the ice to him.

13472. When you mentioned this message about the ice to Mr. Murdoch when he came back at 1 o'clock did you gather from Mr. Murdoch that it was news to him or did you gather from him that he had heard of it before?
- That I really could not say, whether it was fresh news to him or not; I should judge that it would have been, but I really could not say from his expression - not from what I remember.

13473. Your impression is that it was news to him?
- Probably.

13474. Then did you leave the bridge at that time?
- Yes.

13475. And your watch of course would not return until six in the evening?
- Exactly.

I would suggest you watch the following video on the matter as well:

 
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