James B

Member
May 3, 2021
102
14
53
Earth
I wanted to show you the entire quote, word for word without any alterations or cuts.
Dear Tomas, alink is enough, no need to qoute. Its good to understand also where are the qoutes are coming from.
Second officer Lightoller his account at the American inquiry on the fifth day based on the icewarning of the SS Caronia:
The fact that the Captain gave the information to his officers with out taking meassures himself... better not to write my opinion on the matter.
Senator SMITH.
No one called your attention to any telegram or wireless from any ship warning you of ice?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
Who?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I do not know what the telegram was. The commander came out when I was relieved for lunch, I think it was. It may have been earlier; I do not remember what time it was. I remember the commander coming out to me some time that day and showing me a telegram, and this had reference to the position of ice.

Senator SMITH.
Giving what?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
An approximate position and presumably the maximum eastern longitude.

Senator SMITH.
A warning to you, of its proximity?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Giving the position. No warning, but giving the position - a mere bald statement of fact.

Senator SMITH.
Did you regard it as a warning when you got that information?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
We get those repeatedly and various other things, and we regard them as information.

Senator SMITH.
Had you received any other warning, from the time you left Southampton, of that character?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Not that I know of.

Senator SMITH.
This was the first warning you got?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
As far as I know.

Senator SMITH.
Did it warn you?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
It informed us, naturally, and warned us.

Senator SMITH.
What did you do about it?
What could he do about it? Was he promoted to the rank of Captain by being informed? I repeat, officers dont alter course or speed without proper cause, they will have to answer for their action and even loged in the masters log for taking such action, in simple words, black marked, all 3 officers were waiting for promotion if you follow my point, they kept their heads down and didnt question the orders, after all the Captain is always right, dont blame them, it was not thier job to do so.

In the end of the day every one was in thier own seperate world and the Titanic went down the following early morning.
Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Worked approximately
Senator SMITH.
Did you report that fact to anyone?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I did.

Senator SMITH.
To whom?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
The first officer.

Senator SMITH.
Murdoch?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
What time?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I think when he relieved me at lunch time I spoke about it first. I spoke about it in the quarters, unofficially and I also spoke about it, naturally, when he relieved me at 10 o'clock.

Senator SMITH.
What was the conversation between you?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I remarked on the general condition of the weather, and so on, etc., and then I just mentioned as I had done previously, "We will be up around the ice somewhere about 11 o'clock, I suppose." That is all.

Senator SMITH.
That is all you said to him?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
With regard to the ice; yes.

Senator SMITH.
Did you say anything more to him about it at the time you left the watch at 10 o'clock?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you speak to the lookout?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
While you were on watch?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you admonish the lookout men?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
What did you say to them?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I told the sixth officer, Mr. Moody, to ring up the crow's nest and tell them to keep a sharp lookout for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. That was received and replied to - and also to pass the word along.

Senator SMITH.
How do you know it was replied to?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Because I could hear it.

Senator SMITH.
You heard it yourself?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
Did Mr. Moody survive?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you do anything else about it?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No, sir.

Senator SMITH.
You did not talk with the captain about it?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Nothing but the conversation I have already spoken of.


At the British inquiry he also mentioned:


13453. Do you remember Captain Smith showing you something during that time?
- Yes.

13454. Just tell us what it was?
- Captain Smith came on the bridge during the time that I was relieving Mr. Murdoch. In his hands he had a wireless message, a Marconigram. He came across the bridge, and holding it in his hands told me to read it.

13455. He showed it to you, I suppose?
- Yes, exactly; he held it out in his hand and showed it to me. The actual wording of the message I do not remember.

13456. Did you see whether it was about ice?
- It had reference to ice.

13457. Do you remember between what meridians?
- Yes, I particularly made a mental note of the meridians - 49 to 51.

13458. That would be 49 to 51 W.?
- Exactly.

13459. We have the message. I will just find it and read it to you, and perhaps you will be able to tell me if that is right. Do you know from what ship the message came?
- No, I cannot remember the ship.

The Solicitor-General:
It is better to have it now.

Sir Robert Finlay:
Yes, I think we had better have it, and the ship it came from.

The Solicitor-General:
My recollection is that the Attorney-General read it in opening.

The Commissioner:
What time was it?

13460. (The Solicitor-General.) So far, My Lord, he has said it was between 12.30 and one in the middle of the day. (To the witness.) Can you fix at all as between those times?
- About 12.45 as near as I can remember.

13461. Very well; about a quarter to 1?
- Yes.

Mr. Laing:
I have the wording of it.

The Solicitor-General:
Will you hand it to me?

Mr. Laing:
Yes.

13462. (The Solicitor-General.) I think this is the message, and perhaps I can read it to the gentleman and he will tell us if it sounds like it. (To the witness.) We have independent evidence of a message being sent from the "Caronia." "West-bound steamers report bergs, growlers and field ice in 42 N. from 49 to 51 W."?
- I think that is the message that I referred to as near as I can remember.

The Solicitor-General:
This Witness says he was shown that about a quarter to 1, My Lord. Your Lordship will find the evidence of Captain Barr, the captain of the "Caronia," who was interposed on Friday, on page 273 of the print. The question is 12307. The Attorney-General asked Captain Barr, "On the morning of the 14th of April, that is, on the Sunday morning, do you remember sending this Marconigram to the 'Titanic': 'Westbound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice in 42 N., from 49 to 51 W.?' - (A.) Yes, I remember sending it. (Q.) That is sent, I see from your note, at 9 o'clock in the morning." That is the time when the message was sent from the "Caronia."

The Commissioner:
Does it go on to say that that message was acknowledged?

13463. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, My Lord. Then the next question and answer is, "And did you receive a reply at 9.44 a.m. your ship's time? - (A.) Yes, as per that statement." (Q.) The reply is, "Thanks for message and information. Have had variable weather throughout - Smith"? (To the witness.) Now the "Caronia" as we know was coming from New York to Europe and as you see there is the message. The acknowledgment is 9.44 a.m. "Caronia's" time. You had not heard anything about that before you went off your watch at 10 o'clock?
- No.

13464. Can you help us: Would 9.44 a.m. Caronia's" time coming from New York be likely to be later than your 10 o'clock watch coming to an end? You see you went off duty at ten.
- Yes.

13465. (The Commissioner.) Did Captain Smith tell you when he had received the marconigram?
- No, My Lord.

13466. (The Solicitor-General.) And the first you knew of it was when Captain Smith showed it you at about a quarter to one?
- Yes.

13467. So far as your knowledge goes is that the first information as to ice which you had heard of as being received by the "Titanic"?
- That is the first I have any recollection of.

13468. What time of day would it be that your ship's course would be set?
- At noon.

13469. Would that be done by the Commander?
- [No Answer.]

13470. Add anything if there is anything we ought to know. Is that the incident as it occurred then?
- That is the whole of the incident, when the Commander came out and showed me the wireless, yes.

13471. And you told us you were relieving Mr. Murdoch while he was away at lunch. Did he come back?
- Yes, when he came back I mentioned the ice to him.

13472. When you mentioned this message about the ice to Mr. Murdoch when he came back at 1 o'clock did you gather from Mr. Murdoch that it was news to him or did you gather from him that he had heard of it before?
- That I really could not say, whether it was fresh news to him or not; I should judge that it would have been, but I really could not say from his expression - not from what I remember.

13473. Your impression is that it was news to him?
- Probably.

13474. Then did you leave the bridge at that time?
- Yes.

13475. And your watch of course would not return until six in the evening?
- Exactly.

I would suggest you watch the following video on the matter as well:

Thats not ameeting, he handed over to the 2nd officer the information but what was his orders for the night? Thats the bottom line, there is no way to get around it.

What could the 2nd officer do but pass the information to the 1st officer? Noting, he was asked these questions simply because he was the top ranked officer to have lived to tell the tale.

Ps, when qouting maritime investigations need to understand maritime law, there is no black and white, its mostly grey and less romantic or dramatic as it seems.
 

Thomas Krom

Member
Nov 22, 2017
213
356
108
The American inquiry
The British inquiry
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,593
1,369
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
Ice warnings were taken for granted by the wireless operators of the Titanic, the Californian messege with thier position which was close to the Titanic would have given Captain Smith aclear red light that there was danger ahead and mybe he would have decided to slow down but some one decided that personal messeges were more important.

Ice warnings were taken for granted by the wireless operators of the Titanic, the Californian messege with thier position which was close to the Titanic would have given Captain Smith aclear red light that there was danger ahead and mybe he would have decided to slow down but some one decided that personal messeges were more important.
Not true. Marconi Company protocol was that all messages received concerning navigation warnings had priority.
However, the content of messages being relayed between stations was a different situation. The operators were sworn to secrecy eg:
"Mr. EVANS.
I have the message here, sir, but I have not had authority from my company to disclose it."


The contents of such messages were private between sender and receiver. Unless the operator doing the relaying had navigation knowledge, there was no way he could determine if part of the content of a message was relevant to his own ship.

I have a feeling that Evans of the Californian embellished his evidence ( or was told to do so by his employer ) when he stated that he sent:
"MGY MGY MGY MWL Say, old man, we are stopped and surrounded by ice."
In fact, the correct protocol was as follows:
MGY,MGY.MGY - MWL followed by SG - ice report."
Evans confirmed this;
"8969. And what was the information that you were prepared to offer the "Titanic"? A: - I told him "'S.G.' ice report."
If Evans had sent in that format, then Titanic's operator would have been obliged to stop doing what he was doing and answer.
I suggest that Evans got no further than the three MGLs before he was told to "shut -up". If not, then Phillips broke the Company Rule concerning ice warnings and Smith had damn-all to do with it.

Under normal procedure, the content of a message was not sent until the call sign was acknowledged.

Your problem and that of so many is, that you base your judgment on present-day practice because your knowledge of early 20th century practices is limited. Combine that with failure to read the evidence properly or in full and you are leaving yourself open to rebuke.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,593
1,369
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
I wanted to show you the entire quote, word for word without any alterations or cuts.

Second officer Lightoller his account at the American inquiry on the fifth day based on the icewarning of the SS Caronia:
Senator SMITH.
No one called your attention to any telegram or wireless from any ship warning you of ice?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
Who?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I do not know what the telegram was. The commander came out when I was relieved for lunch, I think it was. It may have been earlier; I do not remember what time it was. I remember the commander coming out to me some time that day and showing me a telegram, and this had reference to the position of ice.

Senator SMITH.
Giving what?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
An approximate position and presumably the maximum eastern longitude.

Senator SMITH.
A warning to you, of its proximity?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Giving the position. No warning, but giving the position - a mere bald statement of fact.

Senator SMITH.
Did you regard it as a warning when you got that information?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
We get those repeatedly and various other things, and we regard them as information.

Senator SMITH.
Had you received any other warning, from the time you left Southampton, of that character?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Not that I know of.

Senator SMITH.
This was the first warning you got?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
As far as I know.

Senator SMITH.
Did it warn you?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
It informed us, naturally, and warned us.

Senator SMITH.
What did you do about it?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Worked approximately the time we should be up to this position.

Senator SMITH.
What did you find?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Somewhere around 11 o'clock.

Senator SMITH.
Did you report that fact to anyone?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I did.

Senator SMITH.
To whom?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
The first officer.

Senator SMITH.
Murdoch?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
What time?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I think when he relieved me at lunch time I spoke about it first. I spoke about it in the quarters, unofficially and I also spoke about it, naturally, when he relieved me at 10 o'clock.

Senator SMITH.
What was the conversation between you?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I remarked on the general condition of the weather, and so on, etc., and then I just mentioned as I had done previously, "We will be up around the ice somewhere about 11 o'clock, I suppose." That is all.

Senator SMITH.
That is all you said to him?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
With regard to the ice; yes.

Senator SMITH.
Did you say anything more to him about it at the time you left the watch at 10 o'clock?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you speak to the lookout?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
While you were on watch?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you admonish the lookout men?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
What did you say to them?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I told the sixth officer, Mr. Moody, to ring up the crow's nest and tell them to keep a sharp lookout for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. That was received and replied to - and also to pass the word along.

Senator SMITH.
How do you know it was replied to?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Because I could hear it.

Senator SMITH.
You heard it yourself?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes.

Senator SMITH.
Did Mr. Moody survive?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No.

Senator SMITH.
Did you do anything else about it?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No, sir.

Senator SMITH.
You did not talk with the captain about it?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Nothing but the conversation I have already spoken of.


At the British inquiry he also mentioned:


13453. Do you remember Captain Smith showing you something during that time?
- Yes.

13454. Just tell us what it was?
- Captain Smith came on the bridge during the time that I was relieving Mr. Murdoch. In his hands he had a wireless message, a Marconigram. He came across the bridge, and holding it in his hands told me to read it.

13455. He showed it to you, I suppose?
- Yes, exactly; he held it out in his hand and showed it to me. The actual wording of the message I do not remember.

13456. Did you see whether it was about ice?
- It had reference to ice.

13457. Do you remember between what meridians?
- Yes, I particularly made a mental note of the meridians - 49 to 51.

13458. That would be 49 to 51 W.?
- Exactly.

13459. We have the message. I will just find it and read it to you, and perhaps you will be able to tell me if that is right. Do you know from what ship the message came?
- No, I cannot remember the ship.

The Solicitor-General:
It is better to have it now.

Sir Robert Finlay:
Yes, I think we had better have it, and the ship it came from.

The Solicitor-General:
My recollection is that the Attorney-General read it in opening.

The Commissioner:
What time was it?

13460. (The Solicitor-General.) So far, My Lord, he has said it was between 12.30 and one in the middle of the day. (To the witness.) Can you fix at all as between those times?
- About 12.45 as near as I can remember.

13461. Very well; about a quarter to 1?
- Yes.

Mr. Laing:
I have the wording of it.

The Solicitor-General:
Will you hand it to me?

Mr. Laing:
Yes.

13462. (The Solicitor-General.) I think this is the message, and perhaps I can read it to the gentleman and he will tell us if it sounds like it. (To the witness.) We have independent evidence of a message being sent from the "Caronia." "West-bound steamers report bergs, growlers and field ice in 42 N. from 49 to 51 W."?
- I think that is the message that I referred to as near as I can remember.

The Solicitor-General:
This Witness says he was shown that about a quarter to 1, My Lord. Your Lordship will find the evidence of Captain Barr, the captain of the "Caronia," who was interposed on Friday, on page 273 of the print. The question is 12307. The Attorney-General asked Captain Barr, "On the morning of the 14th of April, that is, on the Sunday morning, do you remember sending this Marconigram to the 'Titanic': 'Westbound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice in 42 N., from 49 to 51 W.?' - (A.) Yes, I remember sending it. (Q.) That is sent, I see from your note, at 9 o'clock in the morning." That is the time when the message was sent from the "Caronia."

The Commissioner:
Does it go on to say that that message was acknowledged?

13463. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, My Lord. Then the next question and answer is, "And did you receive a reply at 9.44 a.m. your ship's time? - (A.) Yes, as per that statement." (Q.) The reply is, "Thanks for message and information. Have had variable weather throughout - Smith"? (To the witness.) Now the "Caronia" as we know was coming from New York to Europe and as you see there is the message. The acknowledgment is 9.44 a.m. "Caronia's" time. You had not heard anything about that before you went off your watch at 10 o'clock?
- No.

13464. Can you help us: Would 9.44 a.m. Caronia's" time coming from New York be likely to be later than your 10 o'clock watch coming to an end? You see you went off duty at ten.
- Yes.

13465. (The Commissioner.) Did Captain Smith tell you when he had received the marconigram?
- No, My Lord.

13466. (The Solicitor-General.) And the first you knew of it was when Captain Smith showed it you at about a quarter to one?
- Yes.

13467. So far as your knowledge goes is that the first information as to ice which you had heard of as being received by the "Titanic"?
- That is the first I have any recollection of.

13468. What time of day would it be that your ship's course would be set?
- At noon.

13469. Would that be done by the Commander?
- [No Answer.]

13470. Add anything if there is anything we ought to know. Is that the incident as it occurred then?
- That is the whole of the incident, when the Commander came out and showed me the wireless, yes.

13471. And you told us you were relieving Mr. Murdoch while he was away at lunch. Did he come back?
- Yes, when he came back I mentioned the ice to him.

13472. When you mentioned this message about the ice to Mr. Murdoch when he came back at 1 o'clock did you gather from Mr. Murdoch that it was news to him or did you gather from him that he had heard of it before?
- That I really could not say, whether it was fresh news to him or not; I should judge that it would have been, but I really could not say from his expression - not from what I remember.

13473. Your impression is that it was news to him?
- Probably.

13474. Then did you leave the bridge at that time?
- Yes.

13475. And your watch of course would not return until six in the evening?
- Exactly.

I would suggest you watch the following video on the matter as well:

Hello Thomas.

Lightoller changed his story about the time of reaching the ice. In the US he said:
"Mr. LIGHTOLLER.: Worked approximately the time we should be up to this position.
Q: What did you find?
A: Somewhere around 11 o'clock.

He also told the UK Inquiry:
"13471. And you told us you were relieving Mr. Murdoch while he was away at lunch. Did he come back? A: - Yes, when he came back I mentioned the ice to him.
13487. That is longitude. Did you form any sort of impression at that time as to what time of day or night you were likely to reach the area indicated? A: - Not at that time
.
13491. (The Commissioner.) At the time this message was given to you by Captain Smith, how many hours steaming would you be away from the ice-field?
- I did not calculate it at that time; later I told one of the Junior Officers to work out about what time we should reach the ice region, and he told me about 11 o'clock.


In fact, Lightoller reckoned they would be at 49 W around 9-30 pm that evening

The captain "pug wash" narrator is also guilty (to a certain extent) of disregarding some of the written evidence and "filling -in bits (and says so).
In fact, we know from the evidence of Lowe, that Smith visited the bridge frequently during the Watches. He would also have made sure he was on the bridge at the change of Watches, when Murdoch took over from Lightoller. He did not "go below" but went "next door" to his accommodation...within a few meters walk ...seconds...of his bridge. That was proved when the ship hit the ice and he was on the bridge seconds after that.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Thomas Krom

Member
Nov 22, 2017
213
356
108
Hello Thomas.

Lightoller changed his story about the time of reaching the ice. In the US he said:
"Mr. LIGHTOLLER.: Worked approximately the time we should be up to this position.
Q: What did you find?

A: Somewhere around 11 o'clock.
He also told the UK Inquiry:
"13471. And you told us you were relieving Mr. Murdoch while he was away at lunch. Did he come back? A: - Yes, when he came back I mentioned the ice to him.
13487. That is longitude. Did you form any sort of impression at that time as to what time of day or night you were likely to reach the area indicated? A: - Not at that time
.
13491. (The Commissioner.) At the time this message was given to you by Captain Smith, how many hours steaming would you be away from the ice-field?
- I did not calculate it at that time; later I told one of the Junior Officers to work out about what time we should reach the ice region, and he told me about 11 o'clock.


In fact, Lightoller reckoned they would be at 49 W around 9-30 pm that evening

The captain "pug wash" narrator is also guilty (to a certain extent) of disregarding some of the written evidence and "filling -in bits (and says so).
In fact, we know from the evidence of Lowe, that Smith visited the bridge frequently during the Watches. He would also have made sure he was on the bridge at the change of Watches, when Murdoch took over from Lightoller. He did not "go below" but went "next door" to his accommodation...within a few meters walk ...seconds...of his bridge. That was proved when the ship hit the ice and he was on the bridge seconds after that.
.
I was party aware of that, but that part wasn't the point of the whole quote. My goal was to show that the officer's were aware of the ice warnings and took it very serious.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,593
1,369
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
Captain Jim, Instead of pointing out where Iam wrong all the time why dont you explain where Captain Smith was wrong?
If you don't like being called to account, then follow the simple procedures of a proper accident investigation. Do not judge before proper consideration of every single bit of evidence.

Captain Smith was not "wrong" by the standards followed in 1912. therefore you cannot judge him by common standards and practices other than those of 1912.
The Inquiries were called to find out why the disaster happened and what could be done to ensure it did not happen again or at least the possibilities of it happening again were reduced.
Both took the easy, political way out and found that excessive speed combined with supreme confidence was the cause of the disaster. Both ignored the evidence pointing to the common practice of captains given exactly the same circumstances.
In truth, Titanic was practically "unsinkable", as were and still are all vessels of her design in normal circumstances under which ship collisions took and still take place. i.e. single point of contact. No designer or practical seaman could have foreseen a ship's side being opened up in such a way during a collision.

Wisdom long after the event has no place in this discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

James B

Member
May 3, 2021
102
14
53
Earth
If you don't like being called to account, then follow the simple procedures of a proper accident investigation. Do not judge before proper consideration of every single bit of evidence.
I dont care if Iam called to the account or not. Anyone who dont like to see my opinions can simply ignore them.
Captain Smith was not "wrong" by the standards followed in 1912. therefore you cannot judge him by common standards and practices other than those of 1912.

In my point of view at least 2 Captains that night have shown better seamanship and were taking proper precautions that were relevent yesterday, are relevent today and will be relevent tommorow: Captain
Stanley Phillip lord and Captain Arthur Henry Rostron, One of them stopped his ship, the other proceded at full speed but was on the bridge the whole time, posted many lookouts and skillfully manouvered his ship. The fact that he nearly missed an Ice berg him self shows that the Titanic shouldnt have been doing 21.5 knots at all.
The Inquiries were called to find out why the disaster happened and what could be done to ensure it did not happen again or at least the possibilities of it happening again were reduced.
Both took the easy, political way out and found that excessive speed combined with supreme confidence was the cause of the disaster. Both ignored the evidence pointing to the common practice of captains given exactly the same circumstances.
Thats your point of view. Others including me will say other wise. Are you suprised that some one dont agree with you? Why is it abad thing?
In truth, Titanic was practically "unsinkable", as were and still are all vessels of her design in normal circumstances under which ship collisions took and still take place.
No, she was the most dangerous one as it seems, the entire library had to be rewritten after the Titanic sank.

i.e. single point of contact. No designer or practical seaman could have foreseen a ship's side being opened up in such a way during a collision.
Are you sure that Thomas Andrews didnt take the bulkhead height issue into account? After all, some of his opinions over ruled on other issues, Iam sure he wasnt happy to be right, after all he didnt try to save himself.
Wisdom long after the event has no place in this discussion.

In that case as per you logic all threads here have no place for discussions .

Ps, your views on the matter equals to the operation was a success, but the patient died.Again l say good sir, lets agree to disagree.
 
Last edited:

Thomas Krom

Member
Nov 22, 2017
213
356
108
Are you sure that Thomas Andrews didnt take the bulkhead height issue into account? After all, some of his opinions over ruled on other issues, Iam sure he wasnt happy to be right, after all he didnt try to save himself.
He wasn't overruled regarding the watertight bulkheads nor with the lifeboats as often claimed. Thomas Andrews Jr wasn't the chief designer of the Olympic class liners until the retirement of Alexander Carlisle in June 1910. Alexander Carlisle campaigned for an alteration of the lifeboat regulations of the Board of Trade. Mr. Carlisle however retired from the shipyard due his declining health and not due an argument he had with his brother-in-law Lord William Pirrie over the lack of enough lifeboats as often falsely claimed. Thomas Andrews Jr took over his position after his retirement. Before he retired Carlisle was responsible for the general arrangement of the Olympic class liners. Thomas Andrews Jr was, and after his promotion remained, the manager of the construction works of Harland and Wolff and the managing director of the drafting departement of the shipyard.
1620919840528.png

Design D (July 1908)
1620919959417.png


Final design (February 1912)

Compared to design D (the design that was proposed by the White Star Line on the 29th of July 1908) only one bulkhead had been extended. In April 1910 the collision bulkhead/bulkhead B was extended to the underside of D-deck on request of Francis Carruthers (the Board of Trade surveyor who oversaw the construction of the Olympic and Titanic) since he was concerned that the bulkhead before that did not go up in a straight line.


The worst scenario Harland and Wolff envisioned was a collision with another ship, hence why she was specifically designed to stay afloat with any two compartment flooded. This was done on request of the White Star Line and the Board of Trade. Nearly all the ships constructed at Harland and Wolff (including all the White Star Liners) had a double bottom to avoid grounding damage as well. The Olympic and Titanic were both referred to as: "A two compartment ship" at the beginning of their careers as well. Any damage beyond this simply seemed implausible at the time. Even compared to modern standards the watertight subdivision is considered to be very safe.


And could you please stop changing the topic to unrelated things to the thread as well? This thread is about the binoculars.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,593
1,369
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
I dont care if Iam called to the account or not. Anyone who dont like to see my opinions can simply ignore them.


In my point of view at least 2 Captains that night have shown better seamanship and were taking proper precautions that were relevent yesterday, are relevent today and will be relevent tommorow: Captain
Stanley Phillip lord and Captain Arthur Henry Rostron, One of them stopped his ship, the other proceded at full speed but was on the bridge the whole time, posted many lookouts and skillfully manouvered his ship. The fact that he nearly missed an Ice berg him self shows that the Titanic shouldnt have been doing 21.5 knots at all.

Thats your point of view. Others including me will say other wise. Are you suprised that some one dont agree with you? Why is it abad thing?

No, she was the most dangerous one as it seems, the entire library had to be rewritten after the Titanic sank.


Are you sure that Thomas Andrews didnt take the bulkhead height issue into account? After all, some of his opinions over ruled on other issues, Iam sure he wasnt happy to be right, after all he didnt try to save himself.


In that case as per you logic all threads here have no place for discussions .

Ps, your views on the matter equals to the operation was a success, but the patient died.Again l say good sir, lets agree to disagree.
I have great-grandchildren with the same attitude of "I don't care". If you don't care, why do you bother?

You mention two captains in your examples of excellence - the actions of which, sink your ideas as surely s Titanic.
One was a first-class seaman in a ship making 11 knots and had 5 pairs of eyes looking for ice but failed to see it in time and the other was a third-class seaman in a ship full of passengers making14,5 knots through a known ice field firing off distress rockets and, but for a bit of luck, would also have hit the ice. - a man, who was a lucky fool.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Mar 22, 2003
6,487
1,758
383
Chicago, IL, USA
www.titanicology.com
In my point of view at least 2 Captains that night have shown better seamanship and were taking proper precautions that were relevent yesterday, are relevent today and will be relevent tommorow: Captain
Stanley Phillip lord and Captain Arthur Henry Rostron,
Senator SMITH. Would glasses in the hands of the lookout be of any assistance in determining proximity to ice? -
Mr. LORD. No, I should not think so. I would never think of giving a man in the lookout a pair of glasses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

James B

Member
May 3, 2021
102
14
53
Earth
You mention two captains in your examples of excellence - the actions of which, sink your ideas as surely s Titanic.
One was a first-class seaman in a ship making 11 knots and had 5 pairs of eyes looking for ice but failed to see it in time
He survived, his ship arrived to its destination safely.

The fact that he didnt pay attension to the Titanics distress is adiffrent story, I dont agree with his actions that night.
and the other was a third-class seaman in a ship full of passengers making14,5 knots through a known ice field firing off distress rockets and, but for a bit of luck, would also have hit the ice. - a man, who was a lucky fool.
Rostron won wide praise for his energetic efforts to reach the Titanic before she sank, and his efficient preparations for and conduct of the rescue of the survivors. He was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal by the United States Congress, and in 1926, he was appointed Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire. He rose to become the Commodore of the Cunard fleet and retired in 1931.

As far as pesonal remarks, better stick with subject which is binoculars (but
Wisdom long after the event has no place in this discussion so end of discussion).

Good day.
 

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,593
1,369
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
He survived, his ship arrived to its destination safely.

The fact that he didnt pay attension to the Titanics distress is adiffrent story, I dont agree with his actions that night.

Rostron won wide praise for his energetic efforts to reach the Titanic before she sank, and his efficient preparations for and conduct of the rescue of the survivors. He was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal by the United States Congress, and in 1926, he was appointed Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire. He rose to become the Commodore of the Cunard fleet and retired in 1931.

As far as pesonal remarks, better stick with subject which is binoculars (but
Wisdom long after the event has no place in this discussion so end of discussion).

Good day.
:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,593
1,369
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
He survived, his ship arrived to its destination safely.

The fact that he didnt pay attension to the Titanics distress is adiffrent story, I dont agree with his actions that night.

Rostron won wide praise for his energetic efforts to reach the Titanic before she sank, and his efficient preparations for and conduct of the rescue of the survivors. He was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal by the United States Congress, and in 1926, he was appointed Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire. He rose to become the Commodore of the Cunard fleet and retired in 1931.

As far as pesonal remarks, better stick with subject which is binoculars (but
Wisdom long after the event has no place in this discussion so end of discussion).

Good day.
As usual, you completely miss the point and forget your own argument., James.
You argue for slower speed and lookout binoculars on Titanic yet I show you an example where half the speed of Titanic and maximum vigilance that you called for made absolutely no difference. yet you praise a man who charged through an ice field at full speed with a ship full of passengers and crew while breaking the very Rules you quoted to me. Binoculars on both these ships made absolutely no difference to the outcome. They did not save Rostron and all those folk on Carpathia.... Boxall did, by firing off his green lights
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,593
1,369
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
Senator SMITH. Would glasses in the hands of the lookout be of any assistance in determining proximity to ice? -
Mr. LORD. No, I should not think so. I would never think of giving a man in the lookout a pair of glasses.
In a nutshell. However, to quote General Melchett: "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

James B

Member
May 3, 2021
102
14
53
Earth
As usual, you completely miss the point and forget your own argument., James.
You argue for slower speed and lookout binoculars on Titanic yet I show you an example where half the speed of Titanic and maximum vigilance that you called for made absolutely no difference. yet you praise a man who charged through an ice field at full speed with a ship full of passengers and crew while breaking the very Rules you quoted to me.
Dear lord, do you actually believe what you are writing? He did it to save lifes and he was on the bridge, he didnt go to sleep with orders to keep course and speed, the end result is the bottom line to any one with common sense, he didnt collide, he did what was humanly possible for the survivors of the Titanic.
Binoculars on both these ships made absolutely no difference to the outcome. They did not save Rostron and all those folk on Carpathia.... Boxall did, by firing off his green lights
No comment.
 

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,593
1,369
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
Dear lord, do you actually believe what you are writing? He did it to save lifes and he was on the bridge, he didnt go to sleep with orders to keep course and speed, the end result is the bottom line to any one with common sense, he didnt collide, he did what was humanly possible for the survivours of the Titanic.

No comment.
Rubbish! Like all masters of that time, Rostron would have originally thought "salvage".
When he started off, he had no idea of the extent of the distress except that Titanic needed help after hitting an iceberg. If you are truly a seafarer, you would immediately know this. Not only that, but had you properly read the evidence, you would also know that the man and his navigator told lies and were incompetent and that but for the grace of the "dear Lord" you mention, would have piled Carpathia up on the pack ice and we would be talking about two disasters.
The truth is eclipsed by the glittering honours bestowed on the man. He was not made Commodore until just before he retired.
 
Mar 22, 2003
6,487
1,758
383
Chicago, IL, USA
www.titanicology.com
Rostron clearly broke all the rules in what amounts to an almost reckless race to get to a sinking ship even after he knowingly entered the danger region. He already lost all contact with Titanic, and must have suspected the worst. Once that first iceberg was spotted around 2:45 he should have slowed down instead of "passing icebergs on every side and making them ahead and having to alter our course several times to clear the bergs" at higher than normal speed. It's one thing for an individual to put himself at high risk, but he put everyone on his vessel, including innocent passengers who had no say in anything, at high risk. He also fired off rockets periodically, which violated the rules because his vessel was not in distress and could have resulted in some other vessel heading in the wrong direction. He is a hero only because he was lucky to get away with it. He narrowly missed striking a 30 ft high iceberg that was first seen only 1/4 mile ahead. Again, he was lucky. And all of that recklessness made no difference. The ship was long gone, and he would have stumbled onto the lifeboats even if he slow down at 2:45 and got there somewhat later after daybreak. What saved the survivors and Carpathia was Boxhall firing those green flares. Otherwise, Carpathia would have gone right past them, and if not hitting an iceberg beforehand, she would have ran into that field of pack ice that was directly in her path.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Cam Houseman

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,153
496
158
16
Maryland, USA
Rostron clearly broke all the rules in what amounts to an almost reckless race to get to a sinking ship even after he knowingly entered the danger region. He already lost all contact with Titanic, and must have suspected the worst. Once that first iceberg was spotted around 2:45 he should have slowed down instead of "passing icebergs on every side and making them ahead and having to alter our course several times to clear the bergs" at higher than normal speed. It's one thing for an individual to put himself at high risk, but he put everyone on his vessel, including innocent passengers who had no say in anything, at high risk. He also fired off rockets periodically, which violated the rules because his vessel was not in distress and could have resulted in some other vessel heading in the wrong direction. He is a hero only because he was lucky to get away with it. He narrowly missed striking a 30 ft high iceberg that was first seen only 1/4 mile ahead. Again, he was lucky. And all of that recklessness made no difference. The ship was long gone, and he would have stumbled onto the lifeboats even if he slow down at 2:45 and got there somewhat later after daybreak. What saved the survivors and Carpathia was Boxhall firing those green flares. Otherwise, Carpathia would have gone right past them, and if not hitting an iceberg beforehand, she would have ran into that field of pack ice that was directly in her path.
Hi Sam!
When you put it that way, wow he was reckless, huh. he broke rules yeah, which he shouldn't have, but we're glad he came when he did, right?

like the story of Lifeboat 12 which was so overloaded the gunwales were inches above the water. They nearly lost the lifeboat, but it managed to get to the carpathia. What if they had been lost, and the Carpathia wasn't there? more would've been lost. Not trying to excuse his behavior, but I think its lucky they saw Boxhall's flares and was able to rescue them at the time they arrived
 

Similar threads

Similar threads