James B

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History is being rewritten here , as if Rostron was not considered as ahero of his time. If he was such abad seaman and with poor judgment how come he had such agood career? I cant find anything bad about him except for the fact that he claimed he saw sea serpents (without binoculars).
 
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Jim Currie

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History is being rewritten here , as if Rostron was not considered as ahero of his time. If he was such abad seaman and with poor judgment how come he had such agood career? I cant find anything bad about him except for the fact that he claimed he saw sea serpents (without binoculars).
Then. if you cannot see the forest for the trees, it is you who need binoculars, my friend.

Every Victorian melodrama had a hero and a villain...the Titanic story was no different.
Equally; politicians in 1912 were no different from what they are today.
Consequently, Rostron was the "hero" (although he did not perform a single heroic act in the true sense of the word) and Lord was the Villain (although he did not commit a single villainous act in the true sense of the word,)
As for politics? At that time, POTUS was Republican William Howard Taft - he was in the run-up to the 1912 November presidential elections and the head of the Senate Inquiry Committee -. Senator Wiliam Alden Smith was also a Republican. need I write more?

By the way, as to Rostron's initial thoughts? Here is proof from the mouth of the Captain you admired for his seamanship...Captain Stanley Lord. The following is an extract from the transcript of an interview he gave:
"Q 192.
Lord: It's very funny, isn't it? It was the height of every shipmaster's ambition in those days and Officers and crew too, to pick up a ship in distress....the wages were so small in those days that a man getting a few hundred pounds salvage money, it was a godsend. And if we had a sign of anything like that, we'd have been after it like a shot...."

The full transcript can be found at: Stanley Lord in Conversation with Leslie Harrison
 

James B

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Then. if you cannot see the forest for the trees, it is you who need binoculars, my friend.

Every Victorian melodrama had a hero and a villain...the Titanic story was no different.
Equally; politicians in 1912 were no different from what they are today.
Consequently, Rostron was the "hero" (although he did not perform a single heroic act in the true sense of the word) and Lord was the Villain (although he did not commit a single villainous act in the true sense of the word,)
As for politics? At that time, POTUS was Republican William Howard Taft - he was in the run-up to the 1912 November presidential elections and the head of the Senate Inquiry Committee -. Senator Wiliam Alden Smith was also a Republican. need I write more?

By the way, as to Rostron's initial thoughts? Here is proof from the mouth of the Captain you admired for his seamanship...Captain Stanley Lord. The following is an extract from the transcript of an interview he gave:
"Q 192.
Lord: It's very funny, isn't it? It was the height of every shipmaster's ambition in those days and Officers and crew too, to pick up a ship in distress....the wages were so small in those days that a man getting a few hundred pounds salvage money, it was a godsend. And if we had a sign of anything like that, we'd have been after it like a shot...."

The full transcript can be found at: Stanley Lord in Conversation with Leslie Harrison
I will open anew tread before the hat man comes again.
 
Nov 14, 2005
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Then. if you cannot see the forest for the trees, it is you who need binoculars, my friend.

Every Victorian melodrama had a hero and a villain...the Titanic story was no different.
Equally; politicians in 1912 were no different from what they are today.
Consequently, Rostron was the "hero" (although he did not perform a single heroic act in the true sense of the word) and Lord was the Villain (although he did not commit a single villainous act in the true sense of the word,)
As for politics? At that time, POTUS was Republican William Howard Taft - he was in the run-up to the 1912 November presidential elections and the head of the Senate Inquiry Committee -. Senator Wiliam Alden Smith was also a Republican. need I write more?

By the way, as to Rostron's initial thoughts? Here is proof from the mouth of the Captain you admired for his seamanship...Captain Stanley Lord. The following is an extract from the transcript of an interview he gave:
"Q 192.
Lord: It's very funny, isn't it? It was the height of every shipmaster's ambition in those days and Officers and crew too, to pick up a ship in distress....the wages were so small in those days that a man getting a few hundred pounds salvage money, it was a godsend. And if we had a sign of anything like that, we'd have been after it like a shot...."

The full transcript can be found at: Stanley Lord in Conversation with Leslie Harrison.

Then. if you cannot see the forest for the trees, it is you who need binoculars, my friend.

Every Victorian melodrama had a hero and a villain...the Titanic story was no different.
Equally; politicians in 1912 were no different from what they are today.
Consequently, Rostron was the "hero" (although he did not perform a single heroic act in the true sense of the word) and Lord was the Villain (although he did not commit a single villainous act in the true sense of the word,)
As for politics? At that time, POTUS was Republican William Howard Taft - he was in the run-up to the 1912 November presidential elections and the head of the Senate Inquiry Committee -. Senator Wiliam Alden Smith was also a Republican. need I write more?

By the way, as to Rostron's initial thoughts? Here is proof from the mouth of the Captain you admired for his seamanship...Captain Stanley Lord. The following is an extract from the transcript of an interview he gave:
"Q 192.
Lord: It's very funny, isn't it? It was the height of every shipmaster's ambition in those days and Officers and crew too, to pick up a ship in distress....the wages were so small in those days that a man getting a few hundred pounds salvage money, it was a godsend. And if we had a sign of anything like that, we'd have been after it like a shot...."

The full transcript can be found at: Stanley Lord in Conversation with Leslie Harrison
So Lord was just another buccaneer. I'm re-evaluating my opinion of him.
 
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James B

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So Lord was just another buccaneer. I'm re-evaluating my opinion of him.
Lord was no saint, it was clear when he kept sleeping with out getting out of bed after hearing strange reports from his officers or at least he should have asked/ordered his wirless operator to have a listen for anything abnormal

The fact that he was qouted from a by some one who claimed to have conversation with him, based on hear say alone with out any records or even asigned letter doesnt make him abucanner or have any meaning during any investigation or maritime court.

If the conversation did take place I would say he was trying to explain in a clever way why he was a victim with out looking weak, an eagle that would have attacked the Titanic as prey.

It means noting about Captain Rostrons actions or any other Captain at that time, including Captain Lord himself.
 
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Lord was no saint, it was clear when he kept sleeping with out getting out of bed after hearing strange reports from his officers or at least he should have asked/ordered his wirless operator to have a listen for anything abnormal

The fact that he was qouted from a by some one who claimed to have conversation with him, based on hear say alone with out any records or even asigned letter doesnt make him abucanner or have any meaning during any investigation or maritime court.

If the conversation did take place I would say he was trying to explain in a clever way why he was a victim with out looking weak, an eagle that would have attacked the Titanic as prey.

It means noting about Captain Rostrons actions or any other Captain at that time, including Captain Lord himself.
I've always said that I believe Captain Lord was made the designated scapegoat by the press and others. I still believe that. But his statements in that article tend to make me believe he that a few pounds would influence him to do the right thing. That's not a charecter trait I find appealing in people. But I could be reading his statements out of context or in a manner he didn't convey well. But if I read them right it was like..."ship sinking? come on lads we can make some coin!"
 
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James B

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But his statements in that article tend to make me believe he that a few pounds would influence him to do the right thing. That's not a charecter trait I find appealing in people.

"ship sinking? come on lads we can make some coin!"

Thats afunny way to describe it but
as I wrote, it was very clever of him if the conversation did take place.

Need to understand something very simple (and complicated at the same time) about shipping, owners dont hire saints or give them command, Captain Lord was no excemption, there is never just black and white, there is also lots of grey.
 
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Thats afunny way to describe it but
as I wrote, it was very clever of him if the conversation did take place.

Need to understand something very simple (and complicated at the same time) about shipping, owners dont hire saints or give them command, Captain Lord was no excemption, there is never just black and white, there is also lots of grey.
Yes I believe your statement is true about captains. But I can only go by my limited experience of the 2 ship captains I served with. One the first nobody liked. Moral was bad under his command. The 2nd everybody liked. He was tough but fair and made improvements the day he stepped aboard. He was of the philosophy "work hard, play hard". By that I mean if say you got in a little trouble on liberty and it was nothing too serious he would cut people some slack if the chief told him they were a good worker. Unfortunate he got demoted and had to retire as a 2 star when had 3 before the Tailhook scandle.

"That's a funny way to describe it" Yes also true. But that's the way I took it. And often I like to lighten things up a little because some of these threads get too contentious that I don't like to participate in them. But my intent is not to be a smart ass. Well most of the time anyway.
 
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James B

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"That's a funny way to describe it" Yes also true. But that's the way I took it. And often I like to lighten things up a little because some of these threads get too contentious that I don't like to participate in them. But my intent is not to be a smart ass. Well most of the time anyway.
I really thought it was afunny comment, didnt view at other wise.
One the first nobody liked. The 2nd everybody liked.
Ballance is usually the right way, not to be extreme in any direction.
 
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I really thought it was afunny comment, didnt view at other wise.

Ballance is usually the right way, not to be extreme in any direction.
Yes I agree . Moderation in all things is something I believe in but have not always practiced. But in the case of the 2 captains the change was like night to day. It ended up being a happy ship for lack of a better term. I was proud to serve on her. I don;t think I could say the same thing before the change. Cheers.
 

Mike Spooner

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I've always said that I believe Captain Lord was made the designated scapegoat by the press and others. I still believe that. But his statements in that article tend to make me believe he that a few pounds would influence him to do the right thing. That's not a charecter trait I find appealing in people. But I could be reading his statements out of context or in a manner he didn't convey well. But if I read them right it was like..."ship sinking? come on lads we can make some coin!"
Captain Lord was truly given misjustice by Government paid legal men and made the scapegoat to cover up for the out of date Board of Trade regulations. Where the press media would have a field day by selling more newspapers.
 

Arun Vajpey

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Captain Lord was truly given misjustice by Government paid legal men and made the scapegoat to cover up for the out of date Board of Trade regulations. Where the press media would have a field day by selling more newspapers.
I certainly feel the same way about Captain Lord - he and his ship were at the wrong place at the wrong time from their perspective. He did fine as far as the safety of his own ship was concerned by stopping for the night. Having said that, they could have shown themselves to be more pro-active by waking their wireless operator and at least trying to go to the rescue, although I doubt if they could have rescued more than a handful of people at the very best - perhaps not even that. As Lord himself said - there was a certain amount of laxity on board the Californian that night.

Taken overall, Captain Lord was certainly made into a scapegoat and like Mike says, there might have been an element of officialdom covering-up their own deficiencies at the time. But while accepting that Lord was given an injustice, there is absolutely no need to introduce the nonsense about some non-existent 'mystery ship' to support that view.

If anything, if the ridiculous and often repeated idea of a mystery ship between the Titanic and Californian had never been introduced, Captain Lord would in all probability have been seen in a far more sympathetic light in later years. Those trying to defend him using the mystery ship to argue their case are actually making his position worse.
 
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Mike Spooner

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While on the subject of Binoculars. Wasn't there a spare set on the bridge reserved for the pilot that could been used for the lookout men when out at sea?
 

James B

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While on the subject of Binoculars. Wasn't there a spare set on the bridge reserved for the pilot that could been used for the lookout men when out at sea?
By the comments above the officers and some Captains didnt consider Binoculars as an important tool , not sure what was the opinion of Captain Smith on the matter and were his instructions were except to keep course and speed.

Now days the matter is clear and it is mentioned in the colregs in rule 5: every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means ....
A productive discussion would be what were the regulations before, I suspect that the common practice of seaman ship passed on from generation to generation was the mostly practiced, that and some thing which is correct till today, the Captain is always right.
 

Thomas Krom

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While on the subject of Binoculars. Wasn't there a spare set on the bridge reserved for the pilot that could been used for the lookout men when out at sea?
The officer's themselves (most notably the captain and the senior officer's) had binoculars. According to second officer Lightoller there was indeed one pair for the bridge, commonly termed pilot glasses.
 
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Jim Currie

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So Lord was just another buccaneer. I'm re-evaluating my opinion of him.
Be careful not to go down the road of the blinkered, Steven.

Look-up the word "buccaneer" and read Lord's entire answer in the transcript carefully - it's on this site. In particular, note the use by Lord of the word "every". and the particular circumstances of distress. If you do, then you will find that you need to apply the label of "buccaneer" to all ship captains at sea in 1912.
This is not hearsay evidence in the legal sense but in actuality. I understand that the original recording of Lord's voice making these observations, and giving these answers, still exists but you need to contact Senan Maloney about that.
 

Seumas

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Be careful not to go down the road of the blinkered, Steven.

Look-up the word "buccaneer" and read Lord's entire answer in the transcript carefully - it's on this site. In particular, note the use by Lord of the word "every". and the particular circumstances of distress. If you do, then you will find that you need to apply the label of "buccaneer" to all ship captains at sea in 1912.
This is not hearsay evidence in the legal sense but in actuality. I understand that the original recording of Lord's voice making these observations, and giving these answers, still exists but you need to contact Senan Maloney about that.
IIRC it is Liverpool Maritime Museum who have the tape of Lord's account.
 
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I read the link you posted. It's the way I read it. As I stated before maybe I'm reading it wrong but that's the way it sounded to me. As for the word buccaneer maybe that is not the best choice to use. I'll accept that. I'm not trying to back peddle. I stand by the comments I made but you see Captain Currie that word is not an entirely negative word to me. I have a special fondness for buccaneers, pirates and privateers. Without them there would be no United States. We could never have gained independence without them. Cheers Sir.
 

Jim Currie

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I read the link you posted. It's the way I read it. As I stated before maybe I'm reading it wrong but that's the way it sounded to me. As for the word buccaneer maybe that is not the best choice to use. I'll accept that. I'm not trying to back peddle. I stand by the comments I made but you see Captain Currie that word is not an entirely negative word to me. I have a special fondness for buccaneers, pirates and privateers. Without them there would be no United States. We could never have gained independence without them. Cheers Sir.
You need to re-read your entire pre 1783 history. I think you will find that there were very many more that a few mercenaries on land and sea involved. The French, Spanish being but two of them.
 

James B

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I doubt if they could have rescued more than a handful of people at the very best - perhaps not even that.
I dont agree with that statement, lack of cabins doesnt mean that there was no space on deck, hallways, engine room and even monkey Island, the vessel didnt need to sail like ajungle banana boat, just wait till Captain Rostron arrived with his ship and transfer most of the passangers.
 

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