Boat deck resurfacing


Rennette Marston

Rennette Marston
Member
I have to say Jaden, this is probably my favourite post I think I've seen on ET. The fact that you felt then need to diagram what stepping on a worm would look like.

:D :D :D

Hilarious metaphor, I should say. Maybe he meant something more like this?

ursula.png
 
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Rennette Marston

Rennette Marston
Member
I have another idea.... What if the boat deck resurfacing was actually the front part of the bridge rising up for a moment after the forward expansion joint opened? I made a video demonstrating this theory. Jump to forty-eight seconds in the video:


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What do you guys think?
 
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Rennette Marston

Rennette Marston
Member
Thanks for the correction. I have long forgotten about the length of the double bottom since I was too busy doing other things, but with my memory rehashed, I think they looked more like this when I first saw them:

clipboard01-a.jpg
 

Rennette Marston

Rennette Marston
Member
The port list I think had rolled back to starboard twice. The first time was around the time the last lifeboats were being filled. Charles Lightoller testified that the ship got a righting movement and maintained it - but it must have rolled back to port again and became very severe because the crew struggled to push the last starboard collapsible uphill. They wanted to lower it down and over the side which I think would mean the drop over the side was quite a long distance down because they could have easily just let it float from its stationary position instead of dragging it up to the davits and lowering it over the side. Edward Brown as mentioned above said in his testimony that

0537. You spoke of a list to port, I think?
- Yes.

10538. At the time that she put the bridge under water was the list considerable?
- Yes.

Cecil Fitzpatrick in his account talked about the boat deck plunging and then righting itself. He was very near the bridge when it happened "The next thing I remember was the ship suddenly dipping and the waves rushing up and engulfing me. After 10 seconds the Titanic again righted herself". That is probably the reason why the forward funnels were thrown over the starboard side.

In Charles Lightoller's book he says "Finally the ship took a dive, reeling for a moment, then plunging." Hugh Woolner's account can be found on Paul Lee's website and he said "Then the ship began rocking a little bit and we could feel it list and move."

Mary Glynn's account can also be found there "We watched the Titanic, rolling and bobbing like a cork. All her lights were burning, and over the water we caught the strains of 'Nearer, My God, to Thee.' Finally Titanic ceased rolling, seemed to hesitate a moment, and plunged her bow into the ocean"

Mrs Reniff's account can be found at blogs.bearwood.sandwell.sch.uk.
"The big boat could be plainly seen. She parted in the middle. There was an awful roar followed by violent explosions. The whole steamer seemed to rock and steady herself for the final plunge. Then she went down."

This 'rocking' movement intrigues me as it happened before, during, and after the bow plunged.
Here's a visual demonstration of what you're describing:

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J

Jaden Maxwell

Guest
Here's a visual demonstration of what you're describing:

I would picture a much stronger list to port that conveys something like William Mellors and the others had seen / felt. Maybe a 25 - 30 degrees to port.


William Mellors
"At this time it was almost impossible to walk on the deck without you caught hold of something owing to the ship heeling right over."



Colonel Gracie
"There was a palpable list to port as if the ship was about to topple over.....All passengers on the port side had been ordered to the starboard side in consequence of the big list to port."

Mr. Thayer
"There was such a big list to port that it seemed as if the ship would turn on her side."



Mr Hardy
"We lowered away and got to the water, and the ship was then at a heavy list to port by the time we commenced to lower away."



Mr. RN. Williams
(Walter Lord met him and made these handwritten notes)
"Nothing to do, just wait. Drops into smoking room once more. Then back on deck. On port side now. Decides it might be warmer in the gym, so he and father start across the deck. But bad list to port side now, and he and father have difficult making it uphill to starboard side. Finally reach gym and find instructor Mc.Cawley idly practicing on the rowing machine. He and father get on “bicycles” and pedal around to get warmer. List makes it too difficult for father, so they restlessly wander back on deck. Must be 2:10 now. Band playing lively music."



25 degree list to port.


portlisttitanic.png



I think it would have looked something like the sinking of the Vestris (google images) which shows a strong list and the passengers trying to hold on and climb uphill. If many of the Titanic survivors thought the Titanic was sinking badly by the head they could have been confused by the strong list to port, because a strong list to port mixed with a very minor downward trim at the bow could easily fool people to think the ship was badly down at the head (try it with a ruler - tilt it down slightly at the long end, and rotate it sideways a bit) and the strong list to port probably just created the feeling to some that she was badly down at the head while the other survivors could feel she was listing badly to port and about to roll over.


Charles Joughin

6035. Now by this time was the list of the ship the same, or do you think she was worse?
- She had gone a little more to port.

6036. And about being down by the head, could you tell at all?
- I did not notice anything. I did not notice her being much down by the head.

6037. Do you mean that the list to port was more serious than -?
- I thought so.

6038. Than being down by the head?
- I thought so, yes.


Anyone who rowed for the Californian off the port bow would only see the bow of the Titanic sinking closer to the sea. From their view she was always going down by the bow because they could see little else, except for the glare of the masthead light pointing at them. Then came an explosion, the masthead light goes out, and a plume of smoke, covers the area, and then they saw the stern sticking up with no clue whatsoever what had just happened. To them, she sank head down, they heard a noise, saw her stern rear high up and slide into the water intact. The survivors who witnessed the side of the ship would be the best eyewitnesses to the disaster, but unfortunately their number was small, and the survivors who shared their experiences is even smaller, but nonetheless each of them is valued with great importance.
 
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Rennette Marston

Rennette Marston
Member
Maybe there was a slightly heavier list to port, perhaps 15 degrees or so, but I doubt it was 25-30 degrees. Otherwise many of the lifeboats on the Titanic would not have been successfully lowered from the boat-deck into the ocean. I think that the list to port was more subtle and happened gradually. Initially there was a starboard list. Then once water began to move up the decks of the Titanic and the forecastle deck began to submerge beneath the sea, she evened her list to starboard and developed a slight port list. Once the lifeboats were all gone, the Titanic developed a list of 10-15 degrees until she "exploded" (broke-up) and returned to an even keel or slightly listed to starboard again.

12:45 AM - 4-5 degrees list to starboard:
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1:45 AM - 10 degrees list to port:
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2:08 AM - 15 degrees list to port:
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2:11 AM - 5 degrees list to starboard:
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James Long

Member
I would picture a much stronger list to port that conveys something like William Mellors and the others had seen / felt. Maybe a 25 - 30 degrees to port.


William Mellors
"At this time it was almost impossible to walk on the deck without you caught hold of something owing to the ship heeling right over."



Colonel Gracie
"There was a palpable list to port as if the ship was about to topple over.....All passengers on the port side had been ordered to the starboard side in consequence of the big list to port."

Mr. Thayer
"There was such a big list to port that it seemed as if the ship would turn on her side."



Mr Hardy
"We lowered away and got to the water, and the ship was then at a heavy list to port by the time we commenced to lower away."



Mr. RN. Williams
(Walter Lord met him and made these handwritten notes)
"Nothing to do, just wait. Drops into smoking room once more. Then back on deck. On port side now. Decides it might be warmer in the gym, so he and father start across the deck. But bad list to port side now, and he and father have difficult making it uphill to starboard side. Finally reach gym and find instructor Mc.Cawley idly practicing on the rowing machine. He and father get on “bicycles” and pedal around to get warmer. List makes it too difficult for father, so they restlessly wander back on deck. Must be 2:10 now. Band playing lively music."



25 degree list to port.


View attachment 49479


I think it would have looked something like the sinking of the Vestris (google images) which shows a strong list and the passengers trying to hold on and climb uphill. If many of the Titanic survivors thought the Titanic was sinking badly by the head they could have been confused by the strong list to port, because a strong list to port mixed with a very minor downward trim at the bow could easily fool people to think the ship was badly down at the head (try it with a ruler - tilt it down slightly at the long end, and rotate it sideways a bit) and the strong list to port probably just created the feeling to some that she was badly down at the head while the other survivors could feel she was listing badly to port and about to roll over.


Charles Joughin

6035. Now by this time was the list of the ship the same, or do you think she was worse?
- She had gone a little more to port.

6036. And about being down by the head, could you tell at all?
- I did not notice anything. I did not notice her being much down by the head.

6037. Do you mean that the list to port was more serious than -?
- I thought so.

6038. Than being down by the head?
- I thought so, yes.


Anyone who rowed for the Californian off the port bow would only see the bow of the Titanic sinking closer to the sea. From their view she was always going down by the bow because they could see little else, except for the glare of the masthead light pointing at them. Then came an explosion, the masthead light goes out, and a plume of smoke, covers the area, and then they saw the stern sticking up with no clue whatsoever what had just happened. To them, she sank head down, they heard a noise, saw her stern rear high up and slide into the water intact. The survivors who witnessed the side of the ship would be the best eyewitnesses to the disaster, but unfortunately their number was small, and the survivors who shared their experiences is even smaller, but nonetheless each of them is valued with great importance.
Actually Jaden, while Collapsible D was being lowered, survivors noticed a gap of three to three and a half feet between the collapsible and the deck. Simple geometry through this information shows the port list to be around 9-11 degrees. :)

-James
 
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Rennette Marston

Rennette Marston
Member
I think it was close to that. Perhaps after Collapsible D left the ship, the list to port became much heavier until the ship shifted its list to her starboard side or evened her keel, as Jack Thayer said. Otherwise, like I said before, it would have been impossible for most of the Titanic's lifeboats to have been successfully launched from the boat-deck if she maintained a dangerous list to either side throughout. I believe the heavy and violent listing began once all of the lifeboats, except Collapsibles A and B, were cleared from the top-deck of the ill-fated liner. Plus, Charles Joughin was said to have been very drunk that night so he probably exaggerated the list to port. It could also be due to perspective issues that some people said different things about the lists as well.

For more information, visit:


 
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pr
As we all know, physics don't support the v-break theory. However, there were survivors on the boat deck that felt it rising.
But 2nd officer Lightoller saw the ship take a dive while he was at or near the starboard side of the ship.
“The ship then took a dive, and I turned face forward and also took a dive.“
How many people felt the deck rising, and what side of the boat deck were they?
Would it be possible for the bow to roll to starboard instead of rising entirely?
probably the ship returning from the list
 
As we all know, physics don't support the v-break theory. However, there were survivors on the boat deck that felt it rising.
But 2nd officer Lightoller saw the ship take a dive while he was at or near the starboard side of the ship.
“The ship then took a dive, and I turned face forward and also took a dive.“
How many people felt the deck rising, and what side of the boat deck were they?
Would it be possible for the bow to roll to starboard instead of rising entirely?
They talk about this in the book On A Sea Of Glass where the bow recovered momentarily after returning from a port list to an even keel, survivors May Futrelle, Ida Hippach and Carrie Chaffee say in their accounts the bow rose up but said the ship writhed, if they factor in the ship returning from a port list to an even keel and the bow recovering momentarily, from a certain distance away from the ship it would look like the bow rose out of the water.
 
Perhaps, but if we ignore the timings for a moment, he claims at first she had a list to starboard, then the list shifted to port later.

We know this is true, even if his timings are out.

He claims that water covered the bow area at around 1:25 however the bow went under later than this so it would seem what Thayer has written is essentially correct only the times that they occured are off.

He also confims the ship was going down by the head.

His blow or buckle upwards line is interesting as well because if you look at the definition of "buckle" it means to bend under strain so if we substitue the term buckle for bend upwards it would suggest the middle part of the ship went up as she broke which would chime with the stern falling and the middle part rising upwards as the bow sank.
Buckle upwards sounds like the Mengot theory with he bending of the keel shoving the decks upwards, even in Mengot's diagram and On A Sea Of Glass the rear end of the bow moves up ever so slightly due to the middle being pushed up.
 
Actually we had that several times on different threats on ET and you are posting same stuff Aaron did.



Did they all really SEE the bow rising?
Here are the ones in the list who did not "see" the bow rise up. They only mentioned how the part or deck they were rose or only mentioned the ship breaking in several pieces.

Eugene Daly - "The Titanic gave a lurch downwards and we were in the water up to our hips. She rose again slightly, and I succeeded in cutting the second rope which held her stern"

William Mellors - "Suddenly, her nose (bow) on which I was on, seemed to suddenly rise from underneath the water and I and a few more that were close by cut the ropes that held the boat to the falls (davits)"

Richard Williams - "I felt the deck come up under me and I found we were high and dry"

Jack Thayer - "Suddenly the whole superstructure of the ship appeared to split, well forward to midship, and bow or buckle upwards."

James McGann - "The ship broke into three. First the bow detached itself, then the middle disappeared, with a hiss like the sound of a thousand blazing rockets, and then finally the aft part of the hull dipped over."

Harry Oliver - "Suddenly there was a terrible crash, and the great ship appeared to split in 'twain, if not in three distinct sections."

William Lindsay - "The sight was awful. I shall never forget it, for she broke in three pieces."

And when was this rising of the bow? With the break? After the break? Why was Jack Thayer in the water when he saw the ship breaking?

Let us take Mellors. He then continued:
"There was suddenly an explosion and I found myself whizzing through the water at an awful pace, having been blown away by the explosion. When I came to my senses a few minutes after I looked round and suddenly saw the ship part in the middle with the stern standing several hundred feet out of the water, at this time I was trying to swim away from her, but could not get more than a few yards away and I had as much as I could do to hold myself up from being dragged down with her. But the suction was not so great as I imagined it would be."

How did the people still on board were able to run aft if bow and stern were separated? Gracie mentioned how the people run aft, Joughin on A Deck followed a mass of people running aft. No mention of a gap.
There are errors in slang and faulty memories in these accounts. Aaron1912 edited survivor accounts and misread stuff.
 
Some people don't know the difference between the front part of the ship and the back. (bow and stern respectively)

And it's possible that debris like the Grand Staircase and the aft end of the bow briefly re-surfaced after the breakup, but for only a few minutes before sinking again, so people weren't quite sure what they'd seen in the dark.

Which explains why the famous Thayer drawing shows the bow inaccurately completely re-surfacing after the breakup.
Jack Thayer did mention somewhere that the Skidmore sketch was not an accurate depiction of what he told Skidmore.
 
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