Boiler explosion

If anyone wants to check the site where i read about the boiler explosions, it's from www.lostliners.com. It has seperate site's for both Lusitania and Empress of Ireland. I may have mis-interpreted the information when it claimed that the boilers exploded, but that's where i got it from.
 
Hello Jason,
Here are a few-
Frank Morris, a muffled detonation; Clayton Burt, loud rumbling noise; Philip Lawor, explosion was something fearful; Mrs. Greenaway, stunned by explosion- she was badly bruised and burned...etc.....
 
Hi Jack,

Thanks for the site, I'm aware of it, but haven't read much on it. It does state that "the boilers were exploding". Since this is the first time I've seen this, I'll have to double check to see if this claim can be backed up.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the information, very interesting. I'll have to look into those accounts at some point.
 
Michael H. Standart wrote:

However, aluminum powder needs some sort of ignition source to even so much as burn. Absent that, you could use the stuff as the core of a baseball, and all you would have would be an unusually heavy baseball.

The ignition source does seem problematic with the theory. I noticed in another thread here Kevin Lea wrote of a possible "thermite reaction," instead of an explosion, that could be triggered by a combination of high temperature and contact between aluminum powder and iron oxide:

https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/10245/50886.html?1068949702

I'm curious if the merits of this theory have been explored any further?

Also, I was wondering about just how well accepted/documented is the fact that aluminum powder was present in Lusitania's holds?

Adam
 
>>I'm curious if the merits of this theory have been explored any further? <<

What merits? Some have been hung up on the idea that the ammunition exploded while consistantly ignoring the actual location of the damage, which was in the engineering spaces. it doesn't matter if the Lusitania was carrying fulminate of murcury, blasting caps, bullets, aluminium powder, party poppers or The World's Biggest Damn Nuke as *all* of this would have been transported in the cargo holds.

The cargo holds is precisely where the damage is not. If the sort of dramatic reaction had occured that Kevin Lea described had happened, you would expect to see evidence of this by way of melted metal that had resolidified, to say nothing of massive gaps were the holds are located and you don't. The shell plating which should be completely blown away is still there and undamaged.
 
My apologies, I admit to being a complete novice as to the forensics of Lusitania's loss. I wasn't aware the condition of the starboard side of the wreck was known so well as to have ruled out damage to the holds.

I had formed the (apparently erroneous) impression the torpedo damage was considerably forward of Boiler Room #1 from Fireman Madden's testimony that water did not begin to enter that compartment until 2 or 3 minutes after the explosion(s).


Adam
 
I think the second explosion, which happened a few minutes before she sank, was equally devastating.
Olive North described the bridge being blown up. Thomas Sandells said that the part of the starboard side seemed to break away, Sarah Lund said the final when the final explosion occured, the ship seemed to fly to pieces. etc....
 
This is what Madden said (According to The Lusitania Resource):

1730
(Branson): Where do you think the explosion came from?
(Madden): I thought it came from the forward end on the starboard side, from the forward side of the starboard boiler.

Doesn't look like he's talking about a cargo hold to me. As to the condition of the Lusitania, the wreck has been pretty thoroiughly gone over. If there had been an explosion in the hold, you would expect the plating there to be bent outwards to reflect this.

It isn't.

If a thermite like reaction had happened, you would expect to see evidence of this in hull plating which would show signs of melting and reforming.

Where is it?
 
^ Undoubtedly, to someone behind the point of the explosion and on the port side of the ship, it would appear to come from forward and to the starboard when such a person gives their estimate of where the explosion originated. I'm disinclined to rely on a witness’ estimate based solely on sounds they heard as particularly exact in the absence of other factors such as the individual’s having had some firsthand experience in having been torpedoed, special training, etc. This may simply be a point of difference in methodology between you and I.

Anyway, that's why I was relying more heavily on the portion of his testimony as to what he actually observed (i.e. how long until he witnessed water entering the boiler room). Now, I understand that in such an event time may appear to move slower to a person who was actually there, but a statement of an interval of a full “2 to 3 minutes” still struck me as a significant elapse of time before flooding began in that compartment. This lead me to believe the torpedo had possibly hit the side of the Cross Bunker ahead of Boiler Room #1, perhaps even damaging the adjacent cargo hold.

Now, as to the "thermite theory," since you raised that point again, the reason I was asking about the merits of it in my earlier post is because I wanted to know more about the scientific merits of the theory and how well they’ve been explored. Thus, my question as to whether its merits have been examined further. Questions had come to mind such as: Does such a reaction actually occur? Do we know more of the circumstances necessary to trigger such a reaction? And what precisely is a thermite reaction like, is it in fact explosive in nature, or is it more a melting and burning event?

With regard to the condition of the starboard hull plating in that region of the ship, as I stated in my second post, I was unaware its condition was known so well as to have ruled out any signs of melting that a thermite reaction would have caused. I had thought with the wreck lying on its starboard side, and with the ship having collapsed some on top of it, that such info was unknown.

I would hope you appreciate, as someone new to this discussion, that I would be taking a holistic approach and considering all suggested causes of Lusitania’s rapid demise and weighing their pros and cons. And with the aluminum powder question, I happened to start my analysis with 1.) was there actually aluminum powder on board (is this documented), and 2.) what conditions are necessary for its ignition. I mistakenly read your earlier post as indicating interest in exploring possible ignition sources for aluminum powder and thus I mentioned Kevin’s thesis that all that is required is high heat + rust for possible collegial discussion and more input on that matter.

Regards,

Adam
 
Adam, I don't have the manifest handy, but the presence of ammunition aboard isn't exactly a state secret. That information came out befor the Lusitania even made it to the other side of the ocean. I don't recall seeing aluminium powder in the list of ammunition carried, but I do recall such incidentals as rifle cartrides, gun cotton (That might be worth looking into) and artillary shells, which BTW, didn't even have explosive filler so there's no help there. There really wasn't a lot there and as small as the cargo space was on an express liner so any ammunition would be competing with other general cargo for space.

The best descriptions I've seen of the secondary explosion was that it was a deep rumbling event. The sort of thing that you would expect to see happen if a number of steam lines burst in a random order. As to the wreck, obviously an internal survey is impossible. It's barely within reach for tech divers and the Royal Navy using the wreck as a practice target for ASW training during the Second World War didn't help matters at all. The hull is fairly well crushed and what Depth Charges didn't cave in, sheer time and decay have moved in to finish the job. (Watch out for the unexploded depth charges close to the wreck!) Still, the wreck has been extensively photographed and thoroughly enough that Ken Marschall has been able to do some very accurate renditions of it.
 
^ Thanks for all the information, Michael!

Since I obviously need to get a better grasp of the events and descriptions of the sinking, I'm going to bow out of this thread. I'll probably start with that Bailey and Ryan book you recommended in another thread if I can find a copy.

Regards,

Adam
 
Manifest:

"....That information came out befor the Lusitania even made it to the other side of the ocean."

My understanding is that the vessel was cleared outwards on the strength of the main freight manifest as rendered to the custom house before departure but that those items which could categorise as disputatious war materiel were shipped on a supplementary manifest rendered after the vessel's departure. The custom of the port allowed such opportunism (if such it was) at the time.

And that President Wilson subsequently ordered the complete manifest to be sequestrated and consigned to the White House cellar where it resided as a 'mystery package' for several years.

One of his successors, whose name escapes me, resurrected it on taking office.

I don't recall the source for this but no doubt someone else can confirm.

Noel
 
The Vessel in Question The Lusitania Was Carrying Munitions. None of the Munitions However were Explosive, Except w/ the Possibility of the Aluminum Powder, though even that is questionable as I've Learned from Talks w/ some people.

I personally think the cause 2nd Explosion was either an Ash Ejector or Funnel Uptake, Either way i Don't Think a Boiler Exploded, but that the boiler suffered from Severe damage.
 
>>I'll probably start with that Bailey and Ryan book you recommended in another thread if I can find a copy. <<

You might try a used bookseller if you can. That way, you can get a reasonable price. Barring that, you could always try Alibris, Amazon.com, or the AbeBook Network. Just be aware that if any of these sources have a copy of this book, that they know the value of the work. You'll be forking over some bucks for it! If you just wish to borrow a copy, interlibrary loan is the way to go.

Whatever you do, stay away from Colin Simpson's work unless you want to do some comparative studies of it alongside other works. Unfortunately, Simpson has been at the heart of a lot of misinformation on the subject, and which Bailey and Ryan went to some pains to rebut.

>>My understanding is that the vessel was cleared outwards on the strength of the main freight manifest as rendered to the custom house before departure but that those items which could categorise as disputatious war materiel were shipped on a supplementary manifest rendered after the vessel's departure.<<

That's the point Bailey and Ryan made. The end result was the same. The authorities knew then what the ship was carrying and scarcely batted an eyelash at it. I'll have to do some more checking, but I think it was FDR who ordered the contents of the Mystery Package released, but I could be wrong.
 
I believe a boiler explosion is highly unlikely. As Diana Preston points out in her book "LUSITANIA", Thomas Madden and Frederick Davis were both stokers who escaped from Boiler room No.1 and survived the sinking. Had there been a boiler explosion, they would not have survived. In addition, I believe a steam line explosion is unlikely for the same reason.
There exists a strong piece of evidence that SOMETHING in the cargo hold exploded. Many survivors reported seeing a large amount of wooden wreckage in the water, mostly BARRELS and CRATES.
Where else could such items have come from other than a large hole in the ships hull in the region of the cargo hold? These items were seen BEFORE the ship went under and thus were not the result of the break-up of the hull on the bottom of the sea.
 
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