Boxhall's reworking of the CQD position

Jim Currie

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Lightoller: "The standard course is on a board and the steering compass course is also on a board. Therefore, the quartermaster uses the board that is there for the steering compass. The senior officer of the watch looks to the standard compass board and passes that course along."
What else do you think was on that board, Sam?

While you think of an answer to that, why don't you address the subject of this thread?
 

Jim Currie

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Lightoller: "The standard course is on a board and the steering compass course is also on a board. Therefore, the quartermaster uses the board that is there for the steering compass. The senior officer of the watch looks to the standard compass board and passes that course along."
Let's play your game of se(a)m-antics, Sam.

Lightoller was talking about two boards. The board that was used by The Quartermaster which had the "Course to Steer" on it and the board used by The Senior OOW. which had the Standard Compass Course on it. What else do you think that second board might have had on it?

While you mull over the above, why don't you respond to the theme of the thread?
 

Mike Spooner

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I am intrigue and fascinating how come the cream of the crop officers could of made that 20 mile mistake in the navigation position. After all to those officers this must only another run of the mill crossing which they have done many times before. Not been an navigator myself I properly make mistakes where I put forward another theory!
First I look what do you need for navigation equipment? Compass, Sextant, Chromometer clock, RPM meter of the prop shafts speed.
I see there is four compass are mention! Not to sure why so many? Never less they are all manmade. Any thing manufacture is never 100% accurate. In manufacturing world you must have a tolerance limit + & -.
First the accuracies of the compasses. The worse enemy is iron and has adjusted to compensate for that. I guest the compass accurate is again from the Olympic. Now if not mistaken the deck compass above the lounge has been raised by a further 3 feet in height. Then the deck changes made between the two ships are quite a few. I am now thinking all this changes will have impact on the compasses reading.
Sextant. How do we know the accuracy of this instrument? I see its stored in sturdy wooden box indicating they may be delicate and handle with care. However should the sextant take a knock or dropped. What is used to check the accuracy of the instrument and is the tool to check the sextant accurate too?
Chromometer (Clock). How do we know the accuracy? It may been OK when leaving the factory, but it may have to taken a knock when placed in the ship. Again what is it check against?
The propeller speed is taken of a meter! How do we known the accuracy of the reading?
You might think I am been a bit pedantic here. In my working career I have work with calibration instruments for many years and only know to well what you may think is accuracy, until check against a master gauge can throw up a few surprises!
I also considered is it important this instruments have to synchronise with each other?
I another problem the ship delivery date is delayed due to the Olympic accident with HMS Hawke, then the propeller blade repair were the shuffle of the two ships take place in the Thompson dry dock Belfast in March, this can only add more loss time to complete ship. Are they coming under pressure to get the Titanic up and sailing before any further delays, and cutting corners?
Just my thoughts of the day.
 
May 3, 2005
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What else do you think was on that board
While you think of an answer to that, why don't you address the subject of this thread?
In ANTR, there is a scene in which Rostron is shown on the bridge giving out his orders, you can see in the backgound, through a window, a board which has " N 52 W " on it..
Is this the type of board to which you are referring?
 

Jim Currie

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Here is a little thought to ponder. I believe, based on the 1549 miles run from Daunt's Rock to noon April 14th, Titanic was 126 miles from the Corner. The sum of those two distances equates to 1675 miles from Daunt Rock to the Corner, matching Olympic's Feb 1912 run. If you work out the distance of the Smith CQD, 41° 44'N, 50° 24'W, back to the Corner at 42°N, 47°W, you find a distance of 153 miles. Add the two and you get 126+153=279 miles from Noon to the Smith CQD. Now how long would it take for the ship to travel that distance at an average speed of 22 knots? 279/22=12.68 hours, or a smidge over 12 and 2/3 hours which is equal to 12 hours and 40 minutes. That is ONE hour greater than the 11 hours and 40 minutes from noon to when the ship struck the berg. To me, this suggests a simple mental error that resulted in a 1 hour overrun when it came time to work out the initial CQD position. Something easily done in the haste to work out a set of distress coordinates.

Well, enough speculation.
I already did, see my post #27 above. Is it too simple to understand, or choose to believe?
I ignored that bit of speculation because it depends on maintaining the course set at Noon until reaching the turning point and makes no allowanced for external influences. Simple it certainly is, believable it certainly is not. I quote a certain Samuel Halpern who stated in his Post No.25:

"to suggest that Titanic was tracking along the GC route perfectly is ludicrous",

Actually, the final distress position worked by Smith would be found by making allowance for any movement of his ship after the moment of impact.
Since he gave a latitude of 41-24' North for his CQD position, he obviously did not believe, as you do, that his ship had actually been turned northward at the time of impact, then drifted southward for a couple of hours under the influence of a south-setting current before she sank at 41-24'North, where he said she stopped in the first place. Silly man!

That same "silly man" was the one who ordered his ship to turn at 5-50 pm.
If, as you claim, she had 126 miles to steam at 22 knots, and he believed, as your "speculation" infers, that she would indeed make good the planned course and distance from Noon to The Corner, then his order would have been "Alter course 265 True at 5-43 pm," not 5-50 pm. Sure, we are talking 7 minutes, but 7 minutes at 22 knots is an over-shoot of 2.6 miles.
However, if Captain Smith did estimate an unhampered speed of 22.1 knots equal to his pre-noon average and made an allowance for half a knot of head current, then he would have used 21.6 knots. Guess what? 5 hours 50 minutes at 21.6 knots = a total distance of...yes...you get it...your famous educated guess of 126 nautical miles. But not from a point on the prescribed track, but one to the south and east of it. If Titanic had been right on her prescribed track at noon, she would have had 124 miles to run to The Corner, not 126 miles. To make your speculation come true, she would have had to have made 126 miles on her planned course to The Corner and have passed smack-bang through the center.
To suggest that Titanic was tracking along the planned route perfectly is ludicrous, to coin a phrase.
 

Jim Currie

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In ANTR, there is a scene in which Rostron is shown on the bridge giving out his orders, you can see in the backgound, through a window, a board which has " N 52 W " on it..
Is this the type of board to which you are referring?
Probably, Robert. But I would not take what you see on a film too seriously.
I have actually advised on small film made by the BBC for Scotland where a WW2 vessel was involved. What they could not duplicate they fabricated.:rolleyes:
 

Mike Spooner

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There were human beings Mike. Simple as that.
Sam, That is the whole point of the matter. If there had not been a error in the navigation position. There would of never been a TITANIC DISARTER! It's quite clear to me the intention was to sail south or referred as turn the corner to avoid the icefield as Mount Temple and no doubt other ships too. I can not believe for one moment Smith would daft enough to take on a icefield at speed in the pitch dark!
Therefore as a brand new ship with the cream of the crop of officers on board, I have to question if there was some not quite right with the navigation equipment!
 

Jim Currie

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Hello Robert.
There was nothing wrong with the navigation equipment supplied to Titanic. it was state of the art for 1912.
Captain Smith had no intention of going further south, despite the thoughts of his junior officers. If he had done so he would not have altered course at 5-50 pm but as you say, did as did Captain Moore of the Mount Temple did.

Captain Smith was acting on historic information that told him that there was ice 10 miles to the north of his planned track. He was very familiar with the normal movement of ice at that time of the year. Therefore, he expected that by the time he reached a point 10 miles south of where the ice had been earlier, it would have acted in the normal way, and moved away to the east and northward. Had he received information showing heavy ice across his track, he would have avoided it. Never the less, he had his officers keep their eyes open for a "straggler"... one that had escaped the eyes of those on other ships. You might be surprised to learn that even when ice was reported, ships always kept up full speed. They did so then, and for at least another 70 years.
 

Mike Spooner

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Jim,
It still does not explain why the CQD or SOS position were the wreck was found or Carpathia picking up the servers was not were the reported SOS position was. What made it worst Boxhall had re-calculated the position and still got it wrong! Therefore I am back to was there a problem with the navigation equipment or was the engines not reading the right RPM. If only 5% out at 75rpm is 71.25rpm. Titanic is a brand new ship and will remain as untried and tested until the first crossing is completed.
Just a matter of interest do we know what route Olympic and Lusitania took for New York?
 

Jim Currie

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Boxhall made 2 mistakes. H assumed a clock change and applied it incorrectly. He guessed at the speed instead of using the Patent Log.
Captain Smith relied on the work of another.
 

Mike Spooner

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So Smith was relying on other officers for the correct information! Surely isn't that the job of the Captain to check as well. After all as the captain he is fully reasonable of those on board. He had plenty of warnings of icebergs and ice field ahead. In that position I would of thought he take no risks and check for himself!
One has to question Boxhall too. If he is so good at navigation why has he got wrong as well. In is position assuming is just not good enough. Was the men ill or is brain gone numb?
As not a navigator myself on clear night were the stars are easy seen and little movement of the ship. If been an experience navigator. How long does one take in time to work it out?
 
May 3, 2005
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Probably, Robert. But I would not take what you see on a film too seriously.
I have actually advised on small film made by the BBC for Scotland where a WW2 vessel was involved. What they could not duplicate they fabricated.:rolleyes:
Thanks again , Jim-

That is probably the case of ANTR, but ANTR has opinions of having the reputation that it is the most accurate "Titanic" movie and it's always interesting to know if maybe, just maybe, a bit of the authentic has crept into the movie. LOL. Just wondered if the "N 52 W" was actually the Carpathia's course to the Titanic wreck site ?

It might seem curious to old Navy veterans such as you, but the bridge on the ship on which I served the most time of my sea duty in the USN - and that was only about 2 1/2 years - was one on the most unfamiliar places on the ship . I was only on the bridge on a regular basis just to check the radar PPI repeater and once to take some measurents, and make a rough drawing for replacing the old PPI with a newer model. I remember there was something about whether the weight and placement of the newer PPI would have any effect on the list.

However, as far as the bridges on ships are concerned, I did have an opportunity to have a fairly long visit to look over and take a lot of pictures of the bridge of the ex-RMS Queen Mary during a stay at Hotel Queen Mary. We also stayed in A-115 during that visit. The bridge was deserted and I had plenty of time there un-interrupted.

I don't even remember exactly where the wheel was on the USS Kenneth Whiting. LOL ,
 
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Jim Currie

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So Smith was relying on other officers for the correct information! Surely isn't that the job of the Captain to check as well. After all as the captain he is fully reasonable of those on board. He had plenty of warnings of icebergs and ice field ahead. In that position I would of thought he take no risks and check for himself!
One has to question Boxhall too. If he is so good at navigation why has he got wrong as well. In is position assuming is just not good enough. Was the men ill or is brain gone numb?
As not a navigator myself on clear night were the stars are easy seen and little movement of the ship. If been an experience navigator. How long does one take in time to work it out?
Hello Mike.
Smith, like every Captain or every manager for that matter, had to and still has to, rely on subordinates. He used estimated position...an estimated made by another. Such positions cannot be reliably checked without a great deal of spare time. Smith did not have that luxury.

Boxhall was anything but a fool. To obtain his distress position he too had to make estimations. Again; he too did not have the luxury of time to spare.

Stars were not used for working the distress positions.
 

Jim Currie

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Thanks again , Jim-

That is probably the case of ANTR, but ANTR has opinions of having the reputation that it is the most accurate "Titanic" movie and it's always interesting to know if maybe, just maybe, a bit of the authentic has crept into the movie. LOL. Just wondered if the "N 52 W" was actually the Carpathia's course to the Titanic wreck site ?

It might seem curious to old Navy veterans such as you, but the bridge on the ship on which I served the most time of my sea duty in the USN - and that was only about 2 1/2 years - was one on the most unfamiliar places on the ship . I was only on the bridge on a regular basis just to check the radar PPI repeater and once to take some measurents, and make a rough drawing for replacing the old PPI with a newer model. I remember there was something about whether the weight and placement of the newer PPI would have any effect on the list.

However, as far as the bridges on ships are concerned, I did have an opportunity to have a fairly long visit to look over and take a lot of pictures of the bridge of the ex-RMS Queen Mary during a stay at Hotel Queen Mary. We also stayed in A-115 during that visit. The bridge was deserted and I had plenty of time there un-interrupted.

I don't even remember exactly where the wheel was on the USS Kenneth Whiting. LOL ,
Aye! The consuls for these old PPIs were hefty bits of kit. :eek:
 

Mike Spooner

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Hello Mike.
Smith, like every Captain or every manager for that matter, had to and still has to, rely on subordinates. He used estimated position...an estimated made by another. Such positions cannot be reliably checked without a great deal of spare time. Smith did not have that luxury.

Boxhall was anything but a fool. To obtain his distress position he too had to make estimations. Again; he too did not have the luxury of time to spare.

Stars were not used for working the distress positions.
Hi Jim,
So do you think it was Smith intention to cut through the icefield?
 
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When it comes down to it all, it is all pure speculation. What is certain is that Smith and Boxhall got it wrong that night, anc luckily for the survivors, Carpathia found them while headed for the wrong place.
 
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Mike Spooner

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Spot on Sam. And if Carpathia had not seen the lifeboats, what was the chance of Californian finding them to?