Bring it up


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Shane Kruger

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I still feel that we should get as much of the ship to the surface and preserve it as soon as possible. every day we wait more is gone forever.if i had been on the ship i would have been devestated to think my things were left in the dark dark depths of the freezing ocean. i would have wanted even strangers to have my things rather that leave them there. all the "leave the ship alone" people should put them selves in the position of a passenger..????
what do we all think...

shane
 
Mar 20, 2000
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Shane,

Not this mess again! Stop already. Believe what you will but, as has been pointed out before, explain your view at least with some clarity. Put some muscle behind your statements. Otherwise you only seem stupid. And surely you are not.

For myself, putting myself in the position of a passenger, I would not want anyone bothering my lost property only to bring it up and parade it around in some sideshow. Come on, in truth, you wouldn't want that either. What if an item brought up belonged to your father or mother or some other loved one who died? Would you really like seeing that personal thing laid out in a glass case for people to "oo" an "ahh" over? No you wouldn't. You'd be deeply hurt. And that is how many relatives of victims and survivors alike feel about this thing.

Randy
 
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Shane Kruger

Guest
Randy,

There is no need to be nasty about it.
I have the right to my opinion and I feel very strongly about this.I would want the items that belonged to any member of my family to be put under glass and appricated. I want the opinions of all not just you........

Shane
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Mr. Kruger, as Randy said, back up your arguements with something substantive, instead of just repeating yourself. Yes you're entitled to your opinion, and you'll get a hearing. Others may not agree with you, but that's a risk we all take in a debate. Myself included.

Your style of repitition makes you look like something of a troll out to irritate people. That's not a good way to make freinds, but an excellant way to provoke some hostility.

In re bringing as much of the ship as possible to the surface; assuming it's tried, it won't be much. If you'll recall, the effort to bring up that 20 ton section of hull plating known as The Big Peice was a real nightmare for those involved. They lost it the first time and had to go back for it the next year...then they nearly lost it again.

All else aside, what would be the point?

Curiously,
Michael H. Standart
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Aug 20, 2000
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Shane,

I agree with Randy and Michael. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, nobody is disputing that. As Randy and Michael said, put something more into your arguements, instead making the same comments over and over again without anything to them.

You're provking hostility here and you are not making any friends. There is no point to bringing up any more artifacts from the wreck, enough is enough.

Jason
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Shane. Let's say that you live at Edward's Air Force Base in the California Desert area. And there is an earthquake. Your home is just this other side of the new beach front of California and you home is now under water.

Okay, let's say that Randy is a serious investor in history and he knows that you have many titanic relics plsu a few thousand diamonds hidden in your mattress. Michael is an avid earthqauke research person. And me, let s say that I am a self motivated borderline criminal profiled pirate. Randy and Michael take great pains to see that everything you have is taken properly. But I get to your place first and I find the container of bugs bunny bandaids, the Maxim subscription and your Taz boxer shorts all in your bathroom. Now, Randy and Michael were planning on getting these to your loved ones. I however want to place these items plus intimate love letters on CNN and cart this stuff around until I take it and my 1967 Corvair to the pound to be crushed.

As I have stated in order threads, the need to identify folks is critical and for that I guess I support some sort of salvage, but what these folks at times are doing is not salvage, it is looting and gutting.

One of my ex-husband's uncles passed on many years ago. When we got to the house where he had lived, every possible relative was in this man;s home rumaging through his drawers, furniture ....everything. They even took batteries from the equipment.

I ran out of the house to the porch and felt sickened. My father in law saw me leave and came out to comfort me. I just wept and felt such saddenness for him.

He was seeing this and it was his brother who had died and his son leading the pack with the treasures they could find. I do not can not understand people who act like this. I guess that my point is that stripmining is illegal in some places and I think that it should be handled in a similar case with this.
This is not an attack on you, it is a heart felt feeling of anger at what you are suggesting represents...I guess. But I am no expert.
Maureen.
 

Dave Gittins

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Mar 16, 2000
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Could we have some sense of proportion, please? Things are recovered every day from shipwrecks, gravesites and everywhere else imaginable. In Oz we even commonly reuse graves after so many years. Titanic is just one site among many thousands. My personal opinion is that the artifacts recovered are not at all important, as they are the commonplace early twentieth century things to be found in great grandmother's cupboard. If there is any value in exploring the wreck, it lies in the insights we might gain into events. A mass-produced china plate remains just that, whatever its source.
 

Inger Sheil

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Feb 9, 1999
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I think there's a certain presumptuousness in speaking for what we believe those who perished would have wanted done with their personal items. I also think that there would have been a whole range of views among them - these were individuals, they came from a range of cultures and economic groups, and represented a very diverse range of emotional temperaments, spiritual beliefs and opinions. You cannot make a generalisation about what "they" as a group would have wanted. There would be some who would be absolutely disgusted and horrified at the idea of their personal items being paraded in front of the world for personal profit, and there are those who would no doubt have enjoyed it.

Personally, I would not wish any personal items or any items belonging to a loved one used as part of that circus - but that's my own subjective view.

Among the relatives of Titanic crew and passengers that I have interviewed there is also a range of opinion - some are most emphatically against it, some are largely indifferent.

If you view the wreck as an 'accident site' as some do, then one wonders if you would also condone digging around the wreckage of a crashed 747 at the bottom of the sea, bringing up the suitcases of the dead so you could put them on display and generate a profit for shareholders.

If you view it as a grave, as I do, well...

I have always said that I respect those whose views differ from mine, and who regard this as a legitimate scientific and/or historic investigation (I disagree with them, but I respect their position). And I loathe those who rape the wreck for profit.

Inger
 
Mar 20, 2000
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Dear Inger,

You are correct. It IS presumptious to assume what ALL Titanic victims/survivors and their relatives would feel/do feel on the salvage issue. Like you I know first hand what some relatives feel but we cannot know the minds of all and I'm sure there are those who choose to remain neutral and let the thing play itself out. As to survivors themselves,I believe we all know Mrs. Haisman was quite happy to have her father's watch returned to her. She must have been extremely touched. And I believe that was a wonderful gesture. On the other hand Miss Hart, who also lost her father, we all know was extremely vocal in her views against salvage.

I do stand by my remark that MANY relatives of Titanic people would be taken aback by personal effects of their deceased loved ones touring in what amounts to a latter-day raree show. I think it is safe to assume they would want to have those items returned so that they themselves were able to make the decision as to whether to exhibit them to the public. I just can't picture anyone with a loved one lost NOT wanting items restored to them first, before having them revealed to the world.

But you are right - we have to be careful not to over-generalize and, as I for one think I am guilty of this in this matter, I do apologize.

All my best, as ever,

Randy
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Hey there Dave,
Great to see you here. Emotionalism was not my intent in my post, but I too must apologize as Randy did above for my own personal over-generalization at times. But it is important to keep focused on what exactly is being said here.

As I said in my post, I do believe that some salvage is important, but unfortunately there are those few who go beyond "checking the 747" so to speak.

When the investigators raise downed planes or sift through the remains of a building garage to locate tiny pieces of metal in order to identify the pieces to put it together through the miracle of metalurgy in order to accurately identify the source of the explosives that down the building.. they are attemtping to identify a part of the process that caused the deaths or possibly to identify the victims or their possessions. But what was presented as the topic of discussion was an all out "Raise It" issue which I think presents an entirely other side to this whole thing.

Raising the 747 to identify is one thing, but ripping pieces of paneling and essentially strip mining the downed plane or the shipwrecked ship to parade for cash with no idea or concept of how that ripping changes what other scientists who are trying to still piece things together see is to me a tragedy of another kind.

I agree with the posting above that stated that the items should first be presented to the owners/family first. And I do not know about Australian laws, but stripmining grave sites here for profit would be not only inappropriate but I believe illegal unless legal permissions from the families were obtained. And that is the whole point.
lol, Maureen.
 
Dec 13, 1999
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I'm wandering away from my subject knowledge here so hope that my posting does not come across as too crass.The presentation of Edith Haisman's father's watch was a wonderful gesture (even if they did take it back!), but was surely an even more wonderful P.R. excersise. Edith told me that she remembered her father buying the watch - the description she gave only very loosly fit the retrieved item - but it was eighty odd years on and made excellent reading in the world's newspapers when so many people were against the retrieval of anything from the wreck site.
As an aside, what is the situation regarding such items - do they belong to the descendants or to the insurance companies who paid out under the terms of the policies?
Maureen's last paragraph is interesting, I'm not aware of the term "stripmining" but assume it means removing for profit. Obviously there is going to be profit of some sort - nobody would undertake salvage otherwise - even if it is only through the exhibition of the artefacts.
Maureen says that it is illegal in the United States unless the legal permission of families is obtained, but surely it was an American Court that granted the salvage rights in the first place? I never heard of any families being consulted.Anyway, keep the posting going, it's good to see the diversity of views, everyone's entitled to his/her opinion after all!
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Geoff, sorry "stripmining" used in this case was a "maureenism"...so you can ignore it. My comment regarding the legalities was in reference to a posting above that referenced people's graves and such. If I wish to dig up a grave here in the states, I better have permission and a legal document to support what I am doing.

If what you sayis true about the families and the US Courts then I donnot know what to say there. Perhaps you are right about the ownership belonging to the insurance companies who paid out...that by receiving the money in a settlement that the families/owners waived their rights to any future claims. Thanks Geoff you always help me stay focused and I appreciate you!
Hope you are well. Maureen.
 

Paul Rogers

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Jun 1, 2000
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It seems to me that there's three types of artifacts in and around the wreck, and it's difficult therefore to come up with a generic view on salvage which applies to all three.

First, there's the basic debris from an ocean liner, such as china, fittings, (even coal!) etc. As Dave says, this is the sort of stuff that one can still find in homes today, and it's essentially worthless. My thoughts are: "Bring it up if you must; who cares?"

Then, there's the items which could give researchers an insight into what happened before, during and after the collision; such as the scrap log, for example. These items SHOULD be salvaged, but by proper historians and not by profiteers who will seek to keep the finds for themselves, rather than sharing the data.

Finally, there's the personal effects of the victims; suitcases, shoes, glasses, etc. I believe that they serve no purpose from a research point of view and that they should be left alone, as a mark of respect to those who died.

I suppose a FOURTH artifact type could be the hull itself, or the bits of it that could be raised anyway. I'd merge this into my Category 3, purely for emotional reasons. (Some would say the hull falls in Category 2 - a research item. I suppose they have a point, but I don't have to agree with it!)

That's my tuppenceworth, anyway!

Regards,

Paul.
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Dear Paul,
A tuppenceworth....I'd place it up there in the British Pound catagory. I placed Dean's two cents worth at $1.95...so I don't know current conversion rates, but I think your opinion is well said! (Not that you need a kudos from me. I guess that I wished I'd a thought of it.)
Maureen.
 
Mar 20, 2000
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All,

I'm shocked - but then again I'm not - to hear from Geoff that Mrs. Haisman's father's watch was actually taken back! I think that Geoff is right & the gesture was really just sheer pathetic PR. I think it is a very telling thing that the salvagers would do something low like that. Makes me sick.

Randy
 

Erik Wood

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Aug 24, 2000
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Good Morning All

Michael I am willing to bet that you know what I am about to say but I am going to say it anyway.

Mr. Krueger,

I am a Captain for the passenger industry. It bothers me greatly that you would even consider raising the graves of over 1500 souls. A lot of whom are my brothers and sisters who have served on the sea. It is almost like digging up the grave yard to see what the people in the graves were wearing and then selling those things for your own profit. It makes no sense. Other then to make money. It also bothers me greatly that you would even consider making money on the death of 1500 people. All of this propaganda about the Titanic and especially this website I do believe is for the people who want to preserve the memories and study the incident and not rob the grave. Just my opinion.

Captain, Erik D Wood.
 

Philip Hind

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As a gentle postscript to Erik's message I should perhaps reiterate that everyone is welcome on the board regardless of their point of view. As long as posts are sensitive to - and respectful of - the differing feelings and opinions of others.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Erik, as you said, I kind of figured out what you were going to say. Rather blunt, but it's pretty much consonant with my own take on the subject, with a few caveats in regards to furthering science.

Phil; I have no problem with Mr. Kruger expressing his opinion in and of itself. I have a certain degree of ambivalance on the subject myself. I strongly favor continued scientific investigation which frequently calls for the recovery and conservation of artifacts and relics, but that's as far as I'm personally willing to go. If Mr.Kruger has a conterary opinion, all well and good. I just wish he wouldn't merely repeat himself as if that will persuade anybody as it certainly won't.

Mr. Kruger, I'm not interested in driving you off, but whatever your opinion, you DO need to substantiate it with more then repitition. Your remarks on the Titanic's deterioration are quite valid. Try to see if you can build something on that.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

Erik Wood

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Aug 24, 2000
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Michael/Phil

I know that perhaps I was a bit blunt but that is the way you have to be sometimes. I do agree that he has the right to say it but should expect that we have the right to disagree with it. I have n desire to remove him or get him kicked off or anything like that. I just wished to share my take on it and let him and anybody else who was listening in on it.

Erik
 
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