Bring it up


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Sep 12, 2000
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Dear Shane,
I am wondering if we looked at this from another angle perhaps if it would help.

Shane, have you lost things in your life or been in a place that was uncomfortable? It seems that you may have a favorite thing that you would not want to sit in the deep of the ocean for years or something. Maybe that is a real fear for you. I am not joking with this...I am being serious. And if this is how it is for you then this is a valid other way of looking at things. Tell us.

I don't know you, but it comes across that way. Maybe it has to do with age...or culture, or something else that causes some of us to kinda cringe at the thought of people going through ships merely to take everything to sell it. The term I used was stripmining of the wrecks.

I think it has been said before, studying or preserving is one thing in a way, but just going down and grabbing what you can to get rich is knd of morbid to me.

But you seem convinced and there are probably others out there who have remained silent who agree with you. Try to convince us that what you say is a great idea in your best way.
Phil offers you this wonderful platform to state your case.

Maureen.
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Shane,

Your comments are correct on the Titanic's deterioration as Michael has pointed out, but as Michael suggested you should try to add to that. I don't want to kick you off either, just tell us why you think this should be done.

I support bringing up the artifacts for scientific investigation, but if they're going down there to bring up them to get money out of it, then that goes way too far for me.

Jason D. Tiller
 
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Micheal Napier

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hey all

I agree that things should be brought up from the wreck, but what about giving them to the relatives and loved ones that lost someone dear to them in this accident.

I would love to hear your thoughts.
 

Erik Wood

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Hey All,

I would have to agree that preserving some things is good but I personally draw the line around cutting up the wreck and lifting it. Or really even going deep deep inside her. I don't know if I like that. I bothers me but that could be just me be old fashioned and way to much into preserving the gravesite of my fellow sailors.

Erik
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Hey Erik,

You're not old fashioned at all. Everything you said in your post bothers me as well.

I believe and I know most people here think the same way, that it is a gravesite. You are definitely not alone here on this one Captain.

Best regards,

Jason
 

Erik Wood

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Hey All,

I would also tend to believe that relatives of the families of the crew and passengers who perished would actually throw quite the tizzy over it being raised. Not only that I can't help but believe that what is left would not make the accent. That the ship would fall apart before it got half way to the surface. Any thoughts on this???

Erik
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Erik,

I agree with what you say. As you said, I also believe that relatives of the families, crew and passengers would be very upset and outraged that the wreck would be raised.

I also think that it would not make the accent. After being down there for eighty-eighty years, a lot of the iron in the hull has been eaten away by the rusticles and the steel is very brittle, so I just don't think it would survive.

It should be left there to rest in peace and to the memory of everybody who died in the disaster.

Does anybody else have any other thoughts? Michael Standart, Bob M?

Best regards,

Jason
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Another thought is that it's just too far down too be raised and not only that it's way to impossible even with today's technology.

Just my opinion, but I think this is true.

Best regards,

Jason
 

Bob Mervine

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Jason;

Since you asked . . . I would have to say that my emotions are mixed. I could best describe my opinion as situational.

Had the ship never been touched -- simply photographed -- and nothing ever raised for salvage then I would be very comfortable leaving it that way. Call it the Ballard approach.

But, reality being what it is, here we are picking up pieces of the lives of those who perished and studying them, admiring them, being entertained by them and learning from them. To me, those are all good things. Call that the reality approach.

The thought of systematically gutting the remains -- if it were possible, which I don't believe it is -- gutting the Titanic, no, looting it makes me ill. Call that the grave robber approach.

So, I'm pretty ok with most of what has been done so far and I am ok with the continuation of the salvage effort as currently conducted. Under some circumstances, I would be comfortable with more aggressive salvage -- if it could be proven that the goal was an important piece (such as the log book referenced in another post) that would add to our knowledge about the Titanic and that the retrieval would not compromise the integrity of the wreck.

I don't normally offer a personal opinion -- especially one that I believe will result in some energetic responses from others -- but I also don't believe in dodging controversy when asked my opinion directly.

Bob
 

Erik Wood

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Aug 24, 2000
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Hello Again Fellas,

I think that it is a touchy subject not matter who you ask. I don't know about most but just the idea of going deep inside the wreck bothers me. In an earlier post I called it being old fashioned. But I guess if my parents or grandparents had perished then I would be rather upset by people disturbing there grave site. I think picking things up from the debris field is one thing. But going deep in to the wreck is another.

Erik
 
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Tracey McIntire

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Hi Bob!
I like your response and I totally agree with it. I think if my curiosity hadn't been aroused with getting a peak at some of the artifacts I would probably be content to let Titanic be. But at the same time the salvagers need to practice some restraint and show some respect for what remains down there.
PS--Let me know if there are any more stories coming from your direction.

Tracey McIntire
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Jason, since you asked, I would have to say that bringing up the wreck is not a possibility at the current state of the art, and given the deterioration of the wreck, by the time it is, there won't be anything to recover. This seems clear enough to me, especially after reading the artical by Dr. Cullimore which was posted in ET Research.

Structural collapse is slow, yet both observable and ongoing with portions of the after part of the bow section having collapsed already to reveal the boilers, the collapse of the roof over the gymnasium, the falling away of the crows nest and observable cracks in the hull all being examples.

My discomfort at what's been done is hardly a secret, but as Bob has pointed out, salvage in the limited sense possible with current technology IS a fait accomplis. If RMSTI survives it's current troubles, we can be certain it'll be continued in the future too. We may not like it, but we better get used to it and hope enough people care to watchdog these people to keep them honest.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Wow, Michael Standart, that was an awesome post! It describes how I know that I feel with words that I would have never found. I do hope that we can keep them honest in the end. I think that is why I appreciate George so much because he always asks what a postcard or letter says for our history and knowledge bankd but does not ask to take it from anyone. That is so absolutely wonderful an attitude. I totally respect you guys a lot. Thanks for the best words Michael!
Maureen.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Hi Mo, and thanks for the kind words. Of course, I'm just a humble student here. With people like George Behe, Dave Gittens, and Inger Sheil posting here just to name a few, I can always count on learning something new anytime I drop in.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

Jason D. Tiller

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Hi Bob and Michael!

Thank you both for your responses and I totally agree with everything you guys say. With regards to what you mention Bob about you being situational, I can say that is where I am as well. You're right about the log book, I would love to see it too and as Michael has previously said in another post it would tell us more about what happened before the collision with the iceberg and after the impact. That's if they kept writing in it while all the chaos was going on with it sinking.

Michael you're also right with what you say about the deterioration of it and when that times comes, nothing will be left to recover. This was pretty clear to me as well after reading Dr. Cullimore's article. Good point on the structural collapse being slow and with what's happening to the different parts of the wreck.

Right again on RMSTI and it's present problems. I sincerely hope that a good number of people who care for what happens to the wreck in the future as you say "care to watchdog these people to keep them honest."

I appreciate your thoughts guys and thanks again!

Best regards,

Jason D. Tiller
 

Bob Mervine

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OT a bit -- but to respond to Tracey's question regarding additional stories, I continue my research and await two things. Well, three things. First, for something new to happen that I can write about, second, to discover some startling facts that are newsworthy and three, for someone to buy the story.
Until one of these occur, you are doomed to read my observations only on boards such as this one.

BTW a similar thread contains a very insightful and moving post from Shelley Dzeidzic >>


<< that speaks eloquently to this subject.

Bob
 

Inger Sheil

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I question the use of the phrase 'reality approach'. I'll stick to 'unreality', thank you very much. I'm not simply going to shrug my shoulders and think 'ah well...the salvage has commenced, so we might as well live with it'. I won't condone a process that I feel is intrusive, and I won't become inured to the process, as I feel RMSTI would like.

Thus far, I think the recovery has been a bloody circus.

I agree with those relatives of the officers who perished - this is intrusive. A veneer of 'scientific' and 'historic' research is still a veneer.

What do you intend to tell them if/when articles belonging to them are recovered? Hell, what do you tell them about those brass buttons that have already been removed from the wreck?

What if that recovered suitcase belonged not to Pitman, but rather to James Moody?

Inger
 
Sep 12, 2000
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"Taking more artifacts from the wreck" thread has an awesome entry from Shelley. Recommend that folks pop over to read it.

Hemmingway would say only what was necessary, but he would lose me, Ing tell me because I am too new at all of this...what did you mean by your last sentence "What if thet receovered suitcase belonged not to Pitman, but rather to James Moody?" Why is that an important question? You are assuming that I know and I don;t...thanks so much for your patience with me for asking "dumb" questions. Maureen.
 

Inger Sheil

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Maureen -

I've interviewed members of that family - including his closest surviving relative - who have very strong views on the intrusive nature of the salvage efforts. What if that suitcase had belonged to James Moody - would they violate the wishes of those closest living relatives to give the curious a voyueristic thrill?

And what if it had belonged to Murdoch? I know of at least one Murdoch who has very strong views on the issue of salvage.

Ing
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Oh, okay...sorry, I didn't know that. But what you said makes sense now. As I have said before, I would be upset if there were a way for me to know what was happeneing to my things,...to know that folks were parading my private stuff out in the open. but that is just me. Thanks Ing. Maureen.
 
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