Bring it up

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Tracey McIntire

Hi Bob!
I like your response and I totally agree with it. I think if my curiosity hadn't been aroused with getting a peak at some of the artifacts I would probably be content to let Titanic be. But at the same time the salvagers need to practice some restraint and show some respect for what remains down there.
PS--Let me know if there are any more stories coming from your direction.

Tracey McIntire
Jason, since you asked, I would have to say that bringing up the wreck is not a possibility at the current state of the art, and given the deterioration of the wreck, by the time it is, there won't be anything to recover. This seems clear enough to me, especially after reading the artical by Dr. Cullimore which was posted in ET Research.

Structural collapse is slow, yet both observable and ongoing with portions of the after part of the bow section having collapsed already to reveal the boilers, the collapse of the roof over the gymnasium, the falling away of the crows nest and observable cracks in the hull all being examples.

My discomfort at what's been done is hardly a secret, but as Bob has pointed out, salvage in the limited sense possible with current technology IS a fait accomplis. If RMSTI survives it's current troubles, we can be certain it'll be continued in the future too. We may not like it, but we better get used to it and hope enough people care to watchdog these people to keep them honest.

Michael H. Standart
Wow, Michael Standart, that was an awesome post! It describes how I know that I feel with words that I would have never found. I do hope that we can keep them honest in the end. I think that is why I appreciate George so much because he always asks what a postcard or letter says for our history and knowledge bankd but does not ask to take it from anyone. That is so absolutely wonderful an attitude. I totally respect you guys a lot. Thanks for the best words Michael!
Hi Mo, and thanks for the kind words. Of course, I'm just a humble student here. With people like George Behe, Dave Gittens, and Inger Sheil posting here just to name a few, I can always count on learning something new anytime I drop in.

Michael H. Standart

Jason D. Tiller

Hi Bob and Michael!

Thank you both for your responses and I totally agree with everything you guys say. With regards to what you mention Bob about you being situational, I can say that is where I am as well. You're right about the log book, I would love to see it too and as Michael has previously said in another post it would tell us more about what happened before the collision with the iceberg and after the impact. That's if they kept writing in it while all the chaos was going on with it sinking.

Michael you're also right with what you say about the deterioration of it and when that times comes, nothing will be left to recover. This was pretty clear to me as well after reading Dr. Cullimore's article. Good point on the structural collapse being slow and with what's happening to the different parts of the wreck.

Right again on RMSTI and it's present problems. I sincerely hope that a good number of people who care for what happens to the wreck in the future as you say "care to watchdog these people to keep them honest."

I appreciate your thoughts guys and thanks again!

Best regards,

Jason D. Tiller
OT a bit -- but to respond to Tracey's question regarding additional stories, I continue my research and await two things. Well, three things. First, for something new to happen that I can write about, second, to discover some startling facts that are newsworthy and three, for someone to buy the story.
Until one of these occur, you are doomed to read my observations only on boards such as this one.

BTW a similar thread contains a very insightful and moving post from Shelley Dzeidzic >>

<< that speaks eloquently to this subject.


Inger Sheil

I question the use of the phrase 'reality approach'. I'll stick to 'unreality', thank you very much. I'm not simply going to shrug my shoulders and think 'ah well...the salvage has commenced, so we might as well live with it'. I won't condone a process that I feel is intrusive, and I won't become inured to the process, as I feel RMSTI would like.

Thus far, I think the recovery has been a bloody circus.

I agree with those relatives of the officers who perished - this is intrusive. A veneer of 'scientific' and 'historic' research is still a veneer.

What do you intend to tell them if/when articles belonging to them are recovered? Hell, what do you tell them about those brass buttons that have already been removed from the wreck?

What if that recovered suitcase belonged not to Pitman, but rather to James Moody?

"Taking more artifacts from the wreck" thread has an awesome entry from Shelley. Recommend that folks pop over to read it.

Hemmingway would say only what was necessary, but he would lose me, Ing tell me because I am too new at all of this...what did you mean by your last sentence "What if thet receovered suitcase belonged not to Pitman, but rather to James Moody?" Why is that an important question? You are assuming that I know and I don;t...thanks so much for your patience with me for asking "dumb" questions. Maureen.

Inger Sheil

Maureen -

I've interviewed members of that family - including his closest surviving relative - who have very strong views on the intrusive nature of the salvage efforts. What if that suitcase had belonged to James Moody - would they violate the wishes of those closest living relatives to give the curious a voyueristic thrill?

And what if it had belonged to Murdoch? I know of at least one Murdoch who has very strong views on the issue of salvage.

Oh, okay...sorry, I didn't know that. But what you said makes sense now. As I have said before, I would be upset if there were a way for me to know what was happeneing to my things, know that folks were parading my private stuff out in the open. but that is just me. Thanks Ing. Maureen.

Erik Wood

Good Morning All,

I hate to say this but I agree with Inger on almost all of the things written in the prior post above. As most around here could tell you I am not all that happy with the recovery and entery into Titanic. But this is a touchy subject. I just had this conversation with Johan Ooddleson who is a Captain for Norweigen Cruise Lines and he and I are of the opinon that it is one thing to recover debris from the field and it is grave robbery to enter and remove things. Buttons from jackets glasses boots laying next to each other almost obiviously means that at one time is where a body lay and to remove those things is in my mind and my mind only is grave robbery. Now I do believe that studying the wreck as well as removing dishes and such from the debris field and debris field only. Those are just my thoughts. I do respect everybodies right to an opinion that is just mine. I guess as I said prior I am just old fashion.

Hey Everyone!

Cut Shane some slack! If that's his opinion, let him share. That's what this mesage board is for.

I have some mixed feelings about this topic. I hate the idea of anyone making money off Titanic. I also am not too crazy about the idea of disturbing the graves of the poor souls who perished aboard or even those who had survived the tragic sinking. However, I do see somewhat of a need to preserve the artifacts aboard the ship to teach future generations and to leave the legacy of the 1500 passengers.

Personally, I think that a number of things should be brought up but the ship and the majority of belongings of the passengers should remain in their final resting place.


Shane Kruger

Hi there all,
Well there has been a bit of movement from my posting. I have been away and only just returned.
I want to say from the start that I do now think any one should profit from this disaster.....
I fully agree that any personal item recovered should go to family. ( if possible ) As I said in the begining I am placing myself in the position of a passenger and I would not want my belongings left to rot away. This is my view and I do not expect any one else to agree with me. When you think of the wonderful interior of the ship just disapearing day by day when we could maybe rescue some parts for all to understand how "great" a ship she was.I am very sorry if any one thinks I would condone disturbing the mass grave but i feel the preservation of the artifacts is important.

Hi Adrianne, nobody had a problem with Mr. Kruger posting his opinion per se. The problem was merely that he was repeating what he had posted on several other threads without really explaining himself.

Shane, the interior of the ship is indeed deteriorating, as well as the rest of the hull, however as to understanding the ship, there's a lot of material out there already which can help you do just that. The Titanic Inquiry Project has the transcripts available on line from both investigations which should be a good place to start, or you can get hardcopy(books!) with the transcripts from either the Congressional Research Service or If you can get them, The Shipbuilder Volumns One and Two have articals reprinted from that magazine which are an absolute goldmine of information on the Titanic, the Olympic and dozens of other transatlantic liners built between 1907 and 1914.

These are just a few examples of the material which exists. Understanding is indeed worthy, but you need not grab trinkets from the wreck to acheive that. You can buy some excellent books on the subject yourself, or just go to the library.

Or you can just ask questions here. There are a lot of people here on this board including dedicated researchers and authors as well as some hard core enthusiasts such as myself who can help you say nothing of the links page and the research already published here.

Give a try.

Michael H. Standart
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