Burials in the sea


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Huh?

Okay, since your English isn't perfect, I presume you're interested in *what* burials at sea were conducted from the Carpathia? The names of the people escape me, but as I recall, there were four people who were bruried at sea, three of whom had died of exposure out in the boats, and one who died after rescue. Captain Rostron had this to say about it at the American Inquiry:
Mr. ROSTRON. Male. It appeared to me to be one of the crew. He was only about 100 yards from the ship. We could see him quite distinctly, and saw that he was absolutely dead. He was lying on his side like this (indicating) and his head was awash. Of course he could not possibly have been alive and remain in that position. I did not take him aboard. For one reason, the Titanic's passengers then were knocking about the deck and I did not want to cause any unnecessary excitement or any more hysteria among them, so I steamed past, trying to get them not to see it.

From the boats we took three dead men, who had died of exposure.

Senator SMITH. From the lifeboats?

Mr. ROSTRON. From the lifeboats; yes, sir.

Senator SMITH. Do you know from which boats they were taken?

Mr. ROSTRON. No, sir; I am only giving you the general news now. We took three dead men from the boats, and they were brought on board. Another man was brought up - I think he was one of the crew - who died that morning about 10 o'clock, I think, and he, with the other three, were buried at 4 o'clock in the afternoon.

Senator SMITH. At sea?

Mr. ROSTRON. At sea.

Senator SMITH. Did they have anything on their persons by which they could be identified?

Mr. ROSTRON. One of my own officers and the Titanic's officers identified the bodies, as far as possible, and took everything from them that could be of the slightest clue or use. Nothing was left but their clothes. There was very little taken, of course. But, as regards details, I can not give you much. I have been too busy.

Senator SMITH. You have not the names of these men?

Mr. ROSTRON. We have the names.

Senator SMITH. You have not them here with you?

Mr. ROSTRON. I have not got them with me; no, sir.

Senator SMITH. Were they men or women?

Mr. ROSTRON. Men. There were several ladies in the boats. They were slightly injured about the arms and things of that kind, of course; although I must say, from the very start, all these people behaved magnificently. As each boat came alongside everyone was calm, and they kept perfectly still in their boats. They were quiet and orderly, and each person came up the ladder, or was pulled up, in turn as they were told off. There was no confusion whatever among the passengers. They behaved magnificently - every one of them.
Captain Rostron's full testimony to theU.S. Senate can be accessed HERE
 
The three names known for sure are those of William Hoyt (1st Class passenger), William Lyons (seaman) and Sidney Siebert (steward). All three were taken from the sea, Hoyt by boat 14 and the two crewmen by boat 4. Lyons was still alive (barely) when taken aboard the Carpathia. The fourth burial was of the un-named crewman who died on collapsible B.

Some sources suggest more than four burials. Lawrence Beesley, for instance, gave the number as eight, including four who had died on board the Carpathia. This is worth noting because of Beesley's generally very accurate reporting and his mention of a respectful audience of passengers on deck, presumably including himself. Nevertheless, Rostron's count ought to be the most reliable.
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Assuming it's survived, has anyone checked out the Carpathia's log for the name of that unknown crewman who was buried at sea? Information like that would be required on the official records.
 
As Bob G. said, Hoyt, Lyons & Siebert are for sure.

Also, I show:
Abraham Harmer, from Collapsible B, identified by Dr. McGhee
Edvard Lindell, from Collapsible A - possibly
unidentified fireman
 
THANKS! to Michael and all to respond. Michael sorry by my writing. I am of _Argentina an of descending the passenger of second class James Vivian Drew and attempt to reconstruct a something of the history of my family
 
I am a relative of Abraham Harmer (whose real name was David Livshin), and I'm trying to find out what happened to him. I and the rest of the family are pretty sure he was buried at sea from the Carpathia, from the reading I've done on this site and from Logan Marshall's "Sinking of the Titanic" (though I'm not sure how reliable Marshall's book is). I'm wondering what evidence there is that Livshin/Harmer was on Collapsible B?
Rachel
 
David Livshin was definitely buried at sea from Carpathia on 15 April. The names of the four buried that day were recorded by Fred Beachler, a Carpathia passenger, who passed them to The New York Herald. They were published on 19 April.

The other three victims are known to have been in lifeboats, so that leaves Livshin as the body taken from collapsible B by Lightoller.
 
Always begs the question how far Jack Phillips made it. I do remember Rostron saying at one point as Carpathia was steaming out of the area that they saw only one body near the ship. They could see the floating person was dead and looked to be of the crew. Such is on the vague side and it's a shame this person to my knowledge wasn't identified.
 
>>Always begs the question how far Jack Phillips made it.<<

About as far as the collapsible (And even that's been questioned) and after that, all bets are off. It would have been nice if Captain Rostron had been able to recover every body from the ocean that he saw, if only to identify some of them but it wasn't practical. Besides, he believed...justifiably in my opinion...that his first duty was to the survivors.
 
Yes, many times what we wish for now, for the ages, wasn't in the cards at the time. There weren't any orders in place until ships like the Mackey Bennett were called up for such tasks. The California searched the site after Carpathia had left, but there doesn't seem to be real orders on what type of search to do, except perhaps find any survivors who somehow missed rescue. Getting the survivors out of that area and back on land seems to have been priority one and for good reason. Even with the Olympic offering to come to the sceene and take on board survivors or anything else was rightly seen as too much for most to see a near twin of the lost liner, let alone board her.
 
I've always been intrigued by the idea of the Olympic pulling alongside her sinking twin and loading on survivors. From what I understand, the Olympic offered. But was advised not to. Maybe she wouldn't have gotten there in time. But the thought of the two ships side by side as one sinks is an interesting thought.

That would have added to the drama of the night even more. Not to mention shed light (literally) on the sinking and answered questions that haven't been possible to answer, given the visibility after the lights went out.
 
Olympic was one of many on their way to the sinking. But she was a good day or so away from the wreck site. I think she sailed some 8 hours or more before getting word that no more could be done. She was encouraged with any ship who could come to do so, but was too far away to help during the time the ship went down.
 

Jason D. Tiller

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But the thought of the two ships side by side as one sinks is an interesting thought.

Perhaps, but it would been have too traumatic for the survivors if Olympic arrived on scene to assist. Put yourself in the survivor's shoes; going from one ship that has just sank beneath you, to her almost identical twin. That doesn't sound very pleasant to me.
 
Hey, guys...was just fantasizing about the drama of the moment. Wasn't really thinking about survivor emotions, logistics, possibilities or anything else. Was just thinking of the sight, as a Titanic enthusiast, of having the two ships side by side in a situation like that.

That's all.
 
Getting back to David Livshin. In Archibald Gracie's "Truth About the Titanic," he discusses the dead man on Collapsible B. He says he rubbed the man's temples and wrists, then, on turning his head, realized he was dead. He described the man as dark-haired (my great-uncle had dark hair) and says he was dressed "like a member of the crew" and - what a moving detail - that he wore grey woolen socks. If this man Gracie describes and my mom's Uncle David were the same person, which seems likely ...
Gracie's description is so sad and touching.

Of course my uncle was not a crew member, and I have no idea what he might have been wearing, besides a life preserver. Can anyone account for Gracie's comment that the dead man in Collapsible B was dressed like a crew member? I'm assuming he would have been referring to a fireman or worker of that sort. How might such a crew member have been dressed?
 
>>How might such a crew member have been dressed?<<

It would depend on where they were working. A member of the Victualling Department would have been wearing a fairly sharp looking uniform if they held a job in the public eye such as a steward. A member of the Deck Department or Engineering would have been in whatever sort of rough but tough and ready garb that was typical of anybody in a blue collar job.
 
I was cleaning out my e-mail inbox when I came across this old conversation. Needless to say, it sparked a flare of curiosity concerning the burials at sea. I read through all the posts above, but I didn't find the information I was looking for (which I didn't necessarily expect because it is a hypothetical situation).

I am wondering whether or not it was possible to choose how to bury a loved one, should they have been brought aboard the Carpathia.
 
There was no choice other than burial at sea, Ben. The US and Canadian health regulations would have prohibited the importation of bodies unless embalmed, and the Carpathia had no provision for that.
 
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