Calling at Cherbourg


Mar 20, 2000
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All,

Does anyone know how long it took Titanic to get to Cherbourg? I realize there would have been some delay owing to the near-accident in Southampton.

Also, when did the boat train with Titanic passengers leave Paris? And how long was that trip in those days? And lastly (I'm full of questions, sorry)were the passengers waiting long at the pier before taking the tender out to the ship?

I've always thought it took Titanic maybe three hours to cross the Channel and I recall reading the train from Paris took six?

Any help would be appreciated establishing a timeline for the Cherbourg stop-over.

Randy
 

George Behe

Member
Dec 11, 1999
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Hi, Randy!

>Does anyone know how long it took Titanic to get >to Cherbourg? I realize there would have been >some delay
> owing to the near-accident in >Southampton.

If I recall correctly, Titanic was delayed about an hour at Southampton because of the New York incident.

In letters written on board the Titanic, Margaretta Spedden wrote that Titanic reached Cherbourg at about 4 p.m. and that she boarded the vessel at 5:30; Kate Buss said that Titanic had *originally* been expected to reach Cherbourg at about 5 p.m.; Charles Davies wrote that Titanic was currently expected to reach Cherbourg at about 6 p.m.; Eileen Lenox-Conyngham wrote that the ship *should* have arrived at Cherbourg at 5 p.m. but that she didn't think it would arrive until 6 p.m.; Fr. Byles wrote that he went to supper at 6 p.m. and that Titanic reached Cherbourg before he finished his meal; Adolphe Saalfeld wrote that Titanic anchored at Cherbourg at 6 p.m.; Henry Julian wrote that Titanic reached Cherbourg at 7 p.m. instead of 6 p.m.; Carl Carlsson wrote that Titanic had not yet reached Cherbourg by 7 p.m.

Based upon the above letters, my own guess is that Titanic reached Cherbourg at (or shortly after) 6 p.m.

Hope that helps, old chap (and that you had a nice Thanksgiving.) :)

All my best,

George
 
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Deleted member 173198

Guest
George-

What an interesting collection of time theories from the various Passenger's who were waiting at Cherbourg for the Titanic's arrival!

Perhaps it might help if I broke the silence a bit and discussed what I inherited from my late grandfather (Edward Ward Williams 1901 until 1986). This occured just shortly after I cellobrated my 13th Birthday back in 1972.

In a manner of speaking, grandad was Sotonian man and above all he alone with his Mother and some of his Brothers and Sisters was actually there, at the White Star Dock (now Ocean Dock) Southampton when Titanic departed on Wednesday 10th April 1912.

Grandad always insisted that the embarkation time was wrong. He would say, to be precisely correct, the departure time was 11 mintues past one and not 1 o'clock. Now how did grandad now that?
He never forgot how he oberserved and lessoned to a well dressed Edwardian gentlman who was standing alone the quayside with his group of people.(I have often thought whether he could have been related to one of the First Class Passenger's. Again, it something we will never know now!) Soon afterwards, he flicked out of his waistcoat pocket, a pocketwatch and quoted the words For the record, she is now leaving at 11 minutes past one!

For obvious reasons I have litteray exhausted all off my channel of investigations as I cannot find anything published in any of the local Southampton papers depicting this period of time back in 1912. Thinking back now, I'm sure the White Star Line didn't want any sort of bad publicity which could have damaged the Company's reputation beyond doubt. Little did they realise, four day's later their mighty vessel would hit the headlines, world-wide.

Hope this help's!

All my best.

Andrew W.
 
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Deleted member 173198

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CORRECTION!

What I am referring to is the time factor (11 minutes past one) and not the New York incident.

Andrew W.
 

George Behe

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Dec 11, 1999
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Hi, Andrew!

Thanks very much for the additional information. Interesting! (Wouldn't it be great if your grandfather had had his camera with him that day?) :)

Take care, old chap.

All my best,

George
 
Dec 31, 2000
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Andrew,

Thank you for sharing your story of your Grandfather with us. That is really quite something to learn. That seems to be the thing with Titanic, we are always learning something new.


Cheers,

Beverly
 
Apr 7, 2001
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Hello Andrew,

I did not know you had a relative on Titanic. You seem to be one of the very few surviving decendents who actively participates here on this Message Board. To me, this is truly a rarity. I am amazed that you could put up with some of us (mainly me!)sometimes! We can be such a hairy bunch of Gorillas! (except for Parks, of course. I'll leave him out of this one, since he's still mad at me for going off topic on that other thread....)
proud.gif


Teri
 
Mar 20, 2000
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Andrew,

Thanks for sharing your personal family memories.

Teri,

Read Andrew's post again - he didn't say his grandfather was ON the Titanic. He said he was there on the dock watching the departure. (Are we still brandying it up, sweetie?)

Randy
 
Apr 7, 2001
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Randy,

Thanks for the good laugh!!!! No, actually I hadn't been dipping into the Brandy at the time of my post. I don't drink very often when I post, but I probably should. It might improve my reading abilities.
crazy.gif


Re-read Andrew's post as you suggested. Yes, you were right, his grandfather was ON the dock. Still, Andrew is special since he's one of very few descendants playing with us on the Board.

Andrew, I failed to thank you for your post of your memories. Thank you very much.

Teri
 
D

Deleted member 173198

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Randy, I am so sorry I completely forgot to mention you. This is strictly for your benefit just as much as for George's!

Geroge-I only wish grandad did have a camera.Imagine the sensantion that would cause. He like the rest of the Williams family lived at number 101,Radcliffe Road, Northam, Southampton.

Teri & Beverley, thank you both for your kind comments. Its one of those so-called-Missing-Links! which needs to be bought out in the open.

Many more will appear in my biography! So please be patient and wait.

Best wishes

Andrew.
 
Dec 7, 2000
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Hi Randy,

Here's a message I was trying to post a few days ago but it didn't work for some reason. I don't know if it is still relevant, but here it is:

-------------------
Hi Randy,

I haven't got it at hand, but Eaton and Haas talk about Titanic arriving at Cherbourg; train departures and arrivals etc.

This is from an earlier discussion somewhere on this board, that the sun set at about 6:49pm at Cherbourg. As some photos of Titanic do exists, and it appears there was still light when she arrived, judging by the light present, it is estimated she reached Cherbourg about 6:30pm - which is what I have in my article. If I remember correctly, her anticipated arrival was about 5pm or 5:30pm.

Daniel.
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Feb 9, 1999
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G'day Andrew -

Glad you've decided to let this particular cat out of the bag ;-) Have been thinking about it ever since we discussed it.

~ Ing
 
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Philippe Delaunoy

Guest
Hi Randy,

The best source of information concerning your question is certainly the book writen by Gérard Destrais "Le Titanic à Cherbourg".

According to Mr Destrais' investigations, here is a timeline for the Titanic stop-over in Cherbourg :

15:30 - arrival of the "New-York Express" train coming from La Gare Saint Lazarre in Paris.

"Chers passagers, suite à un incident à Southampton, le Titanic aura un retard d'environ une heure!"

Due to an "incident" in Southampton, the boarding will suffer a delay of 1 hour.

17:00 - passengers are called to board the Nomadic.

17-30 - last call for latecomers and departure of the Nomadic and the Traffic.

18:00 - the Nomadic and the Traffic are waiting for the Titanic.

18:30/35 - at daybreak, arrival of the Titanic

18:45 - the Nomadic is accosting the Titanic. The Traffic already did.

20:00/10 - the Titanic whistles 3 times and leaves Cherbourg.


Some interesting (French) websites :

www.nomadic.fr.st
www.ville-cherbourg.fr (choose Coup de Coeur)
http://a.f.t.free.fr

Hope it could help you

Phil
 
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Philippe Delaunoy

Guest
Hi Randy,

Here is a timeline from "Le Titanic à Cherbourg" writen by Gérard Destrais :

15:30 - arrival of the "New-York Express" train coming from la Gare Saint Lazarre in Paris.

The boarding will suffer a 1 hour delay due to an "incident" in Southampton.

17:00 - the passengers are invited to board the Nomadic.

17:30 - last call and departure of the Nomadic.

18:00 - the Nomadic and the Traffic are waiting for the Titanic

18:30/35 - arrival of the Titanic.

The Traffic accosts first and then at

18:45 the Nomadic accosts the Titanic

20:00:10 - the Titanic whistles 3 times and leaves Cherbourg.

Some interesting Websites :


www.nomadic.fr.st
www.ville-cherbourg.fr
http://a.f.t.free.fr

Hope it could be helpful.


Phil
 
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George Behe

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Dec 11, 1999
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Hi, Phil!

Does Mr. Destrais' book contain any footnotes which provide documentation for his estimated timeline? Thanks very much.

All my best,

George
 
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Philippe Delaunoy

Guest
Dear Teri, Randy, George, All,

From "Titanic:Triumph and Tragedy" (Eaton & Haas):

"Cherbourg" :

... By 10 April 1912, the two tenders had met and served Olympic on each of her twelve subsequent Cherbourg visits. Now they were to serve another liner on the first day, and at the first stop, of her own maiden trip.
At 9.40 am that morning, as the boat train was leaving London's Waterloo Station for Titanic's Southampton departure, the Train Transatlantique was departing the Gare St Lazare in Paris for its own rendezvous with Titanic at Cherbourg's Gare Maritime. Titanic's first Cherbourg visit was such an event that Nicholas Martin, manager of White Star's Paris office, made the trip with the passengers embarking at the French port. The fares from Paris were first class, 34s 3d (or $8.56); second class, 23s 7d ($5.90); third class 15s 11d ($4.10).

According to White Star company records, there would be 142 first class, 30 second class and 102 third class passengers.
When, after a trip of a little more than six hours, the train arrived at Cherbourg, the passengers received the disappointing announcement that embarkation aboard the tenders, scheduled for 4.30 pm, would be delayed at least one hour. Titanic had been involved in a near-mishap when leaving Southampton, and while she was not at all damaged, her departure had been delayed.
There was grumbling. But c'est la vie, what could one do? A stroll to the centre of town? A walk to the nearby casino? A brief promenade along the Grande Jetee? There were few other attractions. And the tiny Gare Maritime was so uncomfortable....
There was confusion rather than grumbling among the 102 "Continental" passengers arriving at Cherbourg. They were Syrian, Croation, Armenian and other Middle East nationals who, for reasons best known to their travel agents, had been routed from Eastern Mediterranean ports via Marseilles to Paris and, now, to Cherbourg. Their travel arrangements called for departure via "the first available ship", and they were surprised and pleased to find themselves about to board Titanic. But until the tardy liner arrived, there were pieces of luggage to protect, children to keep track of, and official announcements in a strange tongue to decipher.
The "season" was now approaching its end, and in addition to the customary business travellers, there were many socially prominent passengers on the Cherbourg manifest. Among them were Mrs J.W.M. Cardeza and her son Mr Thomas D.M. Cardeza (ticket number 17755, £512 6s); Mr Cardeza's valet, Gustav Lesneur and Mrs Cardeza's maid, Anna Ward were travelling on the same ticket. Mrs Charlotte Drake Cardeza was also accompanied by fourteen trunks, four suitcases and three crates of baggage, on which she would later place a value of £36,567 2s ($177,352.75). The Cardeza entourage was booked for suite B51, the three room complex with its own promenade, on B deck's starboard side.
Among other first class passengers boarding at Cherbourg were Mr George Rheims (ticket 17604 £39 12s); Mr and Mrs Arthur Ryerson and their three children (ticket 17608, £262 7s 6d); Madame Leontine Aubert and her maid, Mlle Emma Segesser (ticket 17477, £69 6s - Madame Aubert had declared while purchasing her ticket that she would take all her meals in the A La Carte restaurant, and thus received a £5 rebate on her fare); Omaha department store magnate Emil Brandeis (ticket 17951, £50 9s 11d); Mr Benjamin Guggenheim and his valet, Victor Giglio (ticket 17593, £56 18s 7d); (Mr Rene Pernot, ticket 2131, £15 1s, Guggenheim's chauffeur, travelled second class); "Mr Morgan" (ticket 11755, £39 12s) and "Mrs Morgan" and maid (ticket 17485, £56 18s 7d) were actually Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon, the latter best known as dress designer "Lucile"; Mrs James J. (Margaret) Brown, known to her friends as "Molly" (ticket 17610, £27 14s 5d); "Miss Rosenbaum" (ticket 17613, £27 14s 5d) was better known as Edith Russell.
Among the 30 second class Cherbourg passengers was "Baron Alfred von Drachstedt", a passenger who would be dissatisfied with his second class accommodation, and who would go to the purser to arrange for a first class cabin. (He was thus assigned D38.) At a later date, he would admit to a United States court hearing a Titanic-related case that his name was actually Alfred Nourney. Other Cherbourg second class passengers may not have had as interesting a background as the "baron", but they were just as real: Mr and Mrs Albert Mallet and their son, Andre; Mr and Mrs Joseph Laroche and their daughters Louise and Simonne; Mr and Mrs Nicholas Nasser, on their way to Cleveland, Ohio. Another second class passenger of more than passing interest was Samuel Ward Stanton, the well known American marine editor and illustrator. (Stanton was returning from Grenada, Spain, where he had been sketching the Alhambra for murals and other decorations he was to do for the new Hudson River Day Line steamboat Washington Irving.)
By 5.30 the passengers had reassembled. Those not already aboard were conducted on to the tenders. The 172 first and second class passengers filled less than a fifth of the space on Nomadic, while Traffic was scarcely a quarter filled. There was, at least, room in which to await Titanic's appearance beyond the breakwater.
After the late start. Titanic's officers had not tried to make up lost time. The trip across the English Channel took more than four hours at a speed a little over 15 knots. Her approach to Cherbourg took Titanic past the gentle headlands sheltering the port's western approach. Speed was slackened as the distant breakwater came into view. Crewmen from the second dog watch were deployed to their mooring stations. Ahead was the city of Cherbourg, spread along the low shore, and the purple height of Mount Roule, topped by its box-like fortress.
The lowering sun had not yet set; its rays were reflected across the gentle swells inside the breakwater. From the terminal, waiting passengers could watch as Titanic entered the opening in the sea wall and moved slowly past the island fort. The traditional British practice of sounding one bell to mark 6.30 during the second dog watch was observed as Titanic dropped her anchor in the roadstead, starboard side facing shore.
Fifteen first class and nine second class passengers who were travelling only as far as Cherbourg prepared to disembark. Cargo was unloaded: two cycles belonging to Major G.I. Noel and his son, who were debarking; eight cases and a crated motorcycle consigned to Mr G. West; a canary, consigned to a Mr Meanwell, who had paid five shillings for its transport; yet another motorcycle, uncrated, this one consigned to a Mr Rogers.
Dusk descended as Titanic rode at anchor with all her lights aglow. As one observer said later, "Perhaps then, more than at any other time, she was the lovely ship that people thought her to be. Her outline was etched clearly in light, with each porthole gleaming like a star, and the masthead lamps winking in the wavering breeze".
Within ninety minutes, 24 passengers were taken ashore, 274 were taken aboard; Mr Meanwells canary was on its way to its new Gallic home and all mails were transferred. At 8pm, the tenders returning to shore, the Titanic's windlass gear whirred and the clank of metal links sounded on the focsle as the great anchor was drawn up. Strident bells from the bridge ordered steam and the use of wing propellers for making a tight reverse turn.
By 8.10 pm the liner was under way, out of the Grande Rade, through the west passage and into the Channel. The engines' beat grew faster and deeper as the lights of Cherbourg dropped astern. The winking signal of the sentinel lighthouse disappeared beneath the horizon.
Across the Channel's southern reaches, around England's south coast, and into the lower reaches of St George's Channel, Titanic glided through the night on her passage from Cherbourg to Queenstown...

Many thanks to Sam who informed me about "these pieces of light reading!"


George,

I'll make some research concerning Mr Destrais' source of information. If you need I can give you his personal details.

Warm regards.


Phil
 
Apr 7, 2001
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Philippe,

Thank you very much for your contribution! A Cherbourg excerpt just for Randy. There ya go Randy!

Wow, that was a lot of information. Loading all those trunks and baggage would have made for great ballasting in itself! Some crewman surely had a task to get hold of! Take a look at the Mrs J.W.M. Cardeza entourage ~ fourteen trunks, four suitcases and three crates of baggage. Now that's some ballasting!

Hey where is our beloved Sam anyways? How is he doing? Drop me a line if you get the chance.

Yours,

Teri
 
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Philippe Delaunoy

Guest
Teri,

Sam has modem problems! I'll ask him to send you a carrier pigeon (or Mr Meanwells canary)!

Yours,

Phil
 

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