Catherine Beatrice Cheape Cay

Brian Ahern

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Dec 19, 2002
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No worries. You've been extremely generous with your time/info. I was looking through Cheape family genealogies online last week. I even came across one that mentioned your own good self, but I assume it's all information you've seen. If not, I'll hunt up the link.
Thanks,
Brian
 

Brian Ahern

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Dec 19, 2002
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I think I've uncovered the riddle of why there's much biographical info on Catherine's supposed first father-in-law, Christopher Rhinelander Robert, and no mention anywhere of the existence of his supposed son and Catherine's first husband, Charles Lee Robert.

I believe Charles Lee Robert was born Charles Lee Morgan. Christopher Rhinelander Robert's second wife was Julia Remington Morgan.
(see http://www.spoonercentral.com/Mastics/CR.html for a page on Christopher Rhinelander Robert's suicide and mention of his wife and stepsons). She had two sons from her first marriage - Charles Lee Morgan and Arthur Morgan. I'll wager (I don't mean that literally!) that these sons assumed their stepfather's name and became the Charles Lee Robert and Arthur Remington Robert we have been discussing on this board.

Their genealogy is here: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kenzie/GenMORGAN.htm
Scroll down to number 11 to see the listing for the marriage of Charles Morgan and Julia Remington.

I can't believe I didn't draw this connection sooner! I see that last year, I did wonder if CRR's stepsons had taken his name. Why didn't I just google the wife's name, since I had it? Ah, well. Live and learn.

Anyway - the fact (if it IS a fact) that Julia Robert's sons took her second husband's name doesn't mean they kept it forever. So in tracking Catherine Cay's daughter and first husband, it might pay off to search for Dorothy Lee Morgan and Charles Lee Morgan.
 

Brian Ahern

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Dec 19, 2002
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Here is a piece that, if I'm not mistaken, relates to Catherine's husband's family. It is a piece on the family of the famous mathematician James Clerk Maxwell, whose mother was a Cay and the aunt of an Albert Cay who was the right age to be Catherine's father-in-law. Though the family tree listed lists Albert Cay, he alone is the sibling in his generation who doesn't have a bio given.

Clerk Maxwell was descended from an old Scottish family named Clerk. Remember that Catherine's Scottish father's middle name was Clerk, so she and her husband might have been distantly related by marriage.

http://www.clerkmaxwellfoundation.org/Maxwell_-_Origins_of_Genius.pdf


Below is a link to a site featuring a painting by William Dyce of Mrs. James Clerk Maxwell and son (son was the mathematician, I believe) donated by the "artist's niece by marriage Mrs. Albert Cay" in 1941.
http://www.bmagic.org.uk/objects/1941P333
1941 was the year that Catherine's mother-in-law, Annie Cay (nee Jaffray), died and that her home, Woodside, was sold.

I know that there was a well-known newspaper proprietor named Sir John Jaffray. However, I have nothing but the fact that Jaffray isn't a common name to go on in supposing this to be the Sir John Jaffray that was Catherine's husband's grandfather.
 
Apr 1, 2005
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catherine was related to the clerks of edinburgh a legal family much like hers, she was related through several marriages between cheapes and clerks her great grand mother was margaret clerk
 
Feb 15, 2007
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I can add just a little to what Craig has already found.

The marriage of Albert Jaffray Cay was on 28th August 1907 at St Cuthbert's in Edinburgh. He was a bachelor aged 27 and Catherine Beatrice was described as a spinster aged 31 and she used her maiden name of Cheape. It isn't clear why she didn't use her first husband's name and I wonder whether the first marriage might have ended in divorce.

I have a copy of the second edition of The Squire of Bentley which was published in 1926, less than a year after the first edition. On page 320 there is a footnote that says that "Katie's only daughter, Mrs Gordon, has Carsaig where she and her husband live". I wonder whether Malcolm Cheape might have any knowledge of Carsaig and the people who lived there.

Sue Tall and Betty Sunley (http://www.kenilworth-war-memorial.org.uk/) found no evidence that Albert Jaffray Cay had any children living at the time of his death, so it seems likely that the Mrs Gordon at Carsaig in 1926 was the same person whom Craig has identified as Dorothy Robert in the 1901 census.

I hope that this is of some use.
 
Jan 5, 2001
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Hi Nicolas,

Many thanks for sharing this information. It fills out the story of Catherine a bit more, and will hopefully lead to more discoveries.

Craig
 

Brian Ahern

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Dec 19, 2002
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I add my thanks! Like Craig said, a big hole in Catherine's story has been filled.
I'm guessing Carsaig is the estate Catherine would have inherited.

Regards,
 
Feb 15, 2007
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Craig and Brian,

Thank you both for your very prompt replies. I had wondered whether I might be too late in joining as this thread was started over two years ago.

My research was originally done back in 2004 when Sue and Betty were preparing their book. I was aware that the story as I had it then was very incomplete, but the emphasis at that time was on identifying living descendants of the people named on the Kenilworth war memorial and it became clear that the daughter of Catherine Cheape was almost certainly not from her marriage to Albert Jaffray Cay.

Using your information, I have now located the marriage of William Gordon to Dorothy L Robert on 16th September 1920 at the North British Station Hotel in Glasgow. The details are clearly all correct (although the name Cay appears as Kay) and the bride's usual residence is given as Carsaig House at Carsaig on the Isle of Mull. It is now clear that the Catherine Cay who died on the Empress did leave just this one daughter.

I also note that the bride's father isn't described as deceased, so the theory that Catherine's first marriage had ended in divorce does seem to be confirmed. I imagine that this may well explain the silence on this subject in the book (The Squire of Bentley) that was written by Catherine's sister.

Regards,

Nick
 
Jan 5, 2001
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Nick,

It is never too late to join a thread. I was delighted to see that you had found Dorothy's marriage, thank you for sharing it here.

I do wonder where Dorothy was in 1914? She would have been around 15, but there is no mention in the Canadian papers that she was in Canada. Perhaps she was at school in England, and in the care of Catherine's family? As always, more questions!

Again, thanks for sharing, and joining the thread.
regards
Craig
 

Brian Ahern

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Dec 19, 2002
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Once again, I ditto Craig's kudos.

It's exciting to have more light shed on Catherine's story. I also wonder about where Dorothy was in 1914, and in fact what her primary living situation was growing up. From perusing the info above, she would have been 17 when her mother died.

A quick google search reveals that Catherine's father purchased the Carsaig and Tiroran estates from the MacLaine family in the 1890's. One source says that Catherine's mother took over the management of the estates after her husband ran into money troubles. The source also said that she ran the ferry to the island at a loss as a public service.

Several websites contain mentions of memorials to Daisy Cheape. From something the site with the ferry info said, it sounds like Daisy might have drowned while a passenger on board it, but I'm not completely clear.

Sorry to be vague - will supply links as soon as I get the chance.

Could find out nothing on the Gordons - William Gordon and Dorothy Robert are such generic names, unfortunately.
 
Feb 15, 2007
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I have justed posted quite a long reply, but the browser seems to have eaten it, so I will have to try again.

Malcolm Cheape recounted the story of Daisy Cheape in a post back in April 2005. She drowned off Mull when a small sailing boat capsized and she became entangled in a rope and couldn't escape. Malcolm also told how there was yet another death by drowning at sea in the same famlily.

The Gordon family seem to have all been involved in shipbuilding. William Gordon is described as a naval architect at the time of his marriage and his father, Aleaxander Milne Gordon, was a naval architect and engineer surveyor. Even the mother (whose name is difficult to read, but I believe is Euphenia Aitken Gordon formerly McIntyre) was described in the 1881 census as a ship tracer in Govan. I assume that this means that she made tracings of the drawings of ships, but I may have got this wrong.

I don't know about the story of money troubles. It is certainly true that Mrs Cheape was wealthy in her own right as she had inherited from her father, Richard Hemming, who had made his fortune in the needle industry in Redditch. Mrs Cheape did have a brother, but their father chose to leave much of his property to his daughter.

Like you, I wonder where Dorothy Robert was living between the 1901 census and her marriage in 1920. Did her father remain in England or return to the USA, and did he remarry? Whether Dorothy lived with her father or her mother, she must surely have received a good education. I suppose that we might learn a little more when the 1911 census becomes available, but apart from that we would need to find a living descendant who might be able to fill in some more of the story.

The online access to the Scottish records doesn't allow searches for births as recent as the 1920s, so if William and Dorothy Gordon did have any children I think that a trip to Edinburgh will be needed to find the information. I may be able to persuade my brother to have a look when he visits there this summer.

Nick
 
Apr 1, 2005
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Hello Nicolas and others,
You are right about the mrs Gordon being Catherines daughter, i had missed the reference in the book. Carsaig lies in the south west of mull, near where Daisy Cheape drowned ,also mrs Gordon had a son i think who moved to near lochgilphead in scotland.
 
Feb 15, 2007
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Malcolm,

Thank you for the information about the Gordon family. I was hoping that you might be able to help us on this.

I note that my typing wasn't too good last night when I re-did my post after I had lost the first attempt; I have introduced errors into the names of both of William Gordon's parents.

His father was Alexander Milne Gordon and the mother was Euphemia Aitken Gordon formerly McIntyre.

Nick
 

Andrew Cohen

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Feb 28, 2007
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Malcolm and Brian,

With regard to the Robert-Cheape ancestry...

I maintain a website; www.OakdaleNY.com which covers Oakdale, NY which I think you will recognize as the location of Pepperidge Hall (Christopher Robert).

I have a section on the site and I am adding more and more information to it. Malcolm's relatives are mentioned in some of the documentation and I wanted to invite you to read through it and send any pictures, stories or commentary to add to the historic record. There are many people who live on the former site of Pepperidge Hall and who are interested in the history.

I hope that you and others will find it interesting and that you will be able to add to it.

When you get to the site, you will find it under the History section.

Thanks so much and please feel free to contact me here or on the Oakdale site.
 
Feb 15, 2007
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Andrew,

Thank you for providing the link to the website. I see that one of the articles on Pepperidge Hall states that Charles Lee Robert was seeking a divorce in May 1904 and this fits neatly into place with the other evidence that has been gathered. I had guessed that it was likely that there had been a divorce, but it is so much better to have proper evidence rather than mere speculation.

On a separate subject, I have tried looking for Alexander Milne Gordon and find that Google gives a reference to the Bentley Historical Library at the University of Michigan. They have a microfiche copy of a trade catalogue for a firm of that name in Glasgow involved with ships, so it appears that William Gordon's father was probably in business on his own account (although, not having seen the catalogue, I don't know whether it is of the right period).

Nick
 

Brian Ahern

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Dec 19, 2002
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Thanks, Andrew. What a great site! I wish I could fill in the blanks more. I also spotted that bit about Charles seeking the divorce.

I suppose we shouldn't read too much into the fact that it was him seeking it. Catherine might have been perfectly content to have herself sued for divorce. I think in the days when people really had to come up with a solid case for divorce and ran the risk of having the request denied by the court, couples that were still on amicable enough terms would work out strategies and decide amongst themselves to cast one in the role of aggrieved party. I recently came across a blurb in an early 1900's Time Magazine society column about a judge rejecting a well-known gentleman's divorce suit on the grounds that he and his wife had both made terrible spouses. Basically, the judge ruled that they deserved each other.

The fact that the divorce suit was in a local Long Island paper makes me wonder if the couple was going for an American divorce. Perhaps because it was preferable to go through a potentially humiliating ordeal in the country that was NOT their primary home? So maybe Charles as the US citizen had to be the one to bring forth the suit?

Total speculation...
 

Andrew Cohen

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Feb 28, 2007
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Thank you for the replies and the compliments. The site is a great deal of work, and I have many more pictures, files and news clippings yet to be posted. It's all a matter of free time, but it is all very, very interesting stuff.

One thing I thought I would mention (if you are not already aware of it) is the site www.ellisisland.org. There are passenger manifests there which can be searched and viewed. It might help to trace some ancestor's movements in and out of the US.

Oh, if anyone has one of the pictures of Catherine (Malcolm?) from the book which they could email me, that would be a great addition to the Robert history.

Thanks all,

Andrew
 

Brian Ahern

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Dec 19, 2002
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Thanks for providing that link, Andrew.
I see that a married couple named Charles L. and Catherine Robert, ages 21 and 20 respectively, both nationalities given as American, arrived in New York on July 15, 1895 aboard the Etruria.
 
Feb 15, 2007
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I agree with Brian, the Ellis Island site is extremely useful. Thank you, Andrew.

There are two entries for Dorothy Robert in 1908. On the 21st February she arrived on the Adriatic having embarked in Cherbourg. Another passenger on the ship is given as Mrs Rhynelander Robert aged 50 and she has manifest line number one while Dorothy is number two. The second arrival was on 14th November on the Celtic and on this one Dorothy had embarked in Liverpool. In this case the accompanying adult (manifest line numbers 22 and 23) is given as Julia Robert again aged fifty and married.

It is evident that Dorothy Robert was travelling with her paternal grandmother. I don't know whether it follows that she was living with her father's family at this stage in her life, but that seems likely.

Another similar pair of manifest entries are numbers 25 and 26 on the Cedric arriving from Liverpool on 18th March 1904, Julia and Charles Lee Robert. Charles was with his mother and not his wife and this must surely have been at a time when the divorce had become inevitable.

I don't think that there can be much doubt that the Miss Cheape aged 18 who arrived on the Teutonic on 2nd February 1893 was Catherine and the Major G C Cheape aged 41 accompanying her was her father. Did she meet Charles Lee Robert on this trip, or had they already met and her father was checking the Robert family before permitting an engagement?

Nick