Cave list


Hildo Thiel

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Nov 5, 2000
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Hi all,

I have a question about the cavelist. First class had a cavelist. Had second- and third class a cave list too?

regards,

Hildo
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Mike Poirier

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Dec 12, 1999
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Apparently something similar was held at the WSL offices in NY. As Esther hart consulted it right after the disaster to see who was in the cabins near her and who survived out them.
 

Hildo Thiel

Member
Nov 5, 2000
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Thanks Michael for the message. So in the White Star Line offices in New York, they had copy of something that looked like a cave list. Was that for all the classes or only first and second class?

Hildo
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi there,

I thought there were "Cave lists" and detailed deckplans for every class aboard Titanic. However only the first class "Cave list" and detailed deckplan survived, cause they were taken from the sinking ship by two first class stewards, including Mr Herbert Cave.

Regards,
Rolf
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Another point about the "Cave list" which is not generally known, is that it was not only a first class cabin list. The second half of the list was the second class passenger list, but no cabin numbers.

Mike, do you know what deck or cabin Esther Hart was in? If it was on D deck, then yes getting a passenger's name and cabin was very easy as a second class steward's body was found with tickets for the entire D deck section in second class. Undoubtedly these tickets were forwarded to WSL in NY, however as other items forwarded there, the tickets are now missing, and most probably no longer exist.

Is it known though that there was a complete cabin list for at least 1st and second class. Miss Isham's family obviously also contacted WSL to find out she was in C49, and then contacted Gracie, and probably Marschal too.

Daniel.
 

Hildo Thiel

Member
Nov 5, 2000
511
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Hi all,

Thanks for the information.

So the "cave list" is so named because it was found on the body of Mr. Cave.

So maybe we must call it cabin list or some kind of a passenger list.

Regards,

Hildo
 
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Richard Dobrenel

Guest
Hi you all,
I've a question,
Could the Cave List have been printed aboard the Titanic in order to make easier the work of the stewards (after that many passengers moved to other cabins)?It could explain the great differences between the prices paid by passengers and the cabins they occupied. But as Herbert Cave was a Saloon Steward, he did not nee the latest cabin list, what can explain some passengers moved after the printing of the list.
Hoping you can help me.
Richard

[Moderator's Note: This message, originally posted as a separate thread, has been moved to this pre-existing thread addressing the same subject. MAB]
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Easley South Carolina
If you mean could an informal list have been cobbled together as an in house working document so the hotel staff could keep track of who was where and who was responsible for keeping it up?

Offhand, I would say the answer to that is "Yes."

>>It could explain the great differences between the prices paid by passengers and the cabins they occupied.<<

Errrrr...I'm not sure it could. The stewards didn't have any special need to know who paid how much for what, just where they were in their areas of responsibility. It's not as if this was an official document used for book keeping or for the immigration authorities.
 
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Richard Dobrenel

Guest
That's exactly what I mean... The prices we can find on ET are the official prices paid at the offices of Paris,... So, if the passengers changed of room during the journey (and it was changed on the staff's lists), the prices and the occupied rooms look like very different.
Cordially,
Richard
 
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Richard Dobrenel

Guest
I know that. But, on some discussion pages, I saw that Mr. X or Mrs. Y paid just £xxx xx s. for a large suite on B-Deck, e.g. So, this difference could be explained by the fact that the paid price (found on the page of this passenger) was the one paid in an office in England or France and that this passenger wanted to be moved to another cabin (which is noted on the Cave List) and paid the surplus to a staff member (purser?). This price is noted nowhere (it has maybe sunk with the ship). I suppose this fact explains the difference between the cabin occupied by the passenger (seen on the Cave List) and the paid price if there is a substantial difference.
Cordially.
Richard
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hello Richard,

On this web-site under: Latest Research Articles you should read:
A THOROUGH ANALYSIS OF THE “CAVE LIST” by Daniel Klistorner - 1st April 2004

What you are suggesting does not accord with the likely date of the Cave List. - That is the cabin assignments on the Cave List pre-date Titanic's sailing by at least several days.

None of that goes any way to explaining the often large differences between the fare paid and the advertised Rate for a particular room. As for example Major Butt paying £26 11s. - That is the Minimum 1st Class fare from London. - £26 for his room and 11s for Rail travel from London to Southampton, showing as being in B-38 for which the advertised rate was £60.

The type of arrangement you speak of [on-board payments to the purser] could [only] have applied to the few passengers who are on the Cave List with no room assignment, to some of those who booked in the last few days, or to those who are on the Cave List with room numbers, but are known [or believed] to have occupied other rooms.
 
Dec 7, 2000
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I do go into cabin changes & possible inaccuracies, but in addition to what I said, the Davidson & Hays party were "guests" on board and only paid a minimum fare to travel 1st class and were given some of the best suites on board. Other than that, all the cabins on the Cave list (inaccuracies aside) are the cabins they paid for and correspond with the prices listed.

Daniel.
 
Dec 7, 2000
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Charles,

I'm traveling at the moment, so I unfortunately don't have the time to check what I wrote and I don't have any of my material with me.

I can't remember what I wrote in the article, but if you look in the Cave list, Stead doesn't actually have a cbin listed for him. Obviously he paid minimum price for whatever was given to him on board. Apparently he was given an inside C deck stateroom and later asked to be moved to another one. Whether this is true or not is of little consequence. The price list shows minimum price for his cabin, and the Cave list doesn't even give him a cabin (which fits in with what I say in the article for people with no cabins). Whatever the circumstances, he would have organised to have C87 after boarding.

There isn't enough information about Maj Butt's booking. All we know is how much he paid, and what cabin he was in from the Cave list. In direct comparison, R. W. Smith only paid minimum fare for his cabin, A19 as well. There are too many anomalies with prices paid and cabins occupied. I think what we're dealing with here is with people in large suite cabins who paid low prices, and not with people in cabins who did not pay advertised prices.

In fact, Lester did a spreadsheet about this, and I could be wrong, but from memory, no one actually paid the advertised price for their cabin? I think just about everyone paid less for their cabin and two parties were overcharged.

Regards,

Daniel.
 
Oct 17, 2002
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What I'm wondering with this is what the profit and pricing set-ups where for the offices actually selling the tickets. Did they have any room to negotiate prices or offer different than advertised prices. My assumption would be that they would. Basically, utilizing a similar set-up as found today. The agency purchases the tickets then sells them themselves setting their own margin. Does anybody know this to be the case?
 
Dec 13, 1999
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Thanks for that Daniel, I should have known this was already explained in your essay, but as it's been a long time since I last read it, I didn't recall this particular issue being raised. I must have sounded stupid then!
 

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