Cave list

[Hildo Thiel]

Hi all,

I have a question about the cavelist. First class had a cavelist. Had second- and third class a cave list too?

regards,

Hildo

 

[Mike Poirier]

Apparently something similar was held at the WSL offices in NY. As Esther hart consulted it right after the disaster to see who was in the cabins near her and who survived out them.

 

[Hildo Thiel]

Thanks Michael for the message. So in the White Star Line offices in New York, they had copy of something that looked like a cave list. Was that for all the classes or only first and second class?

Hildo

 

[Rolf Vonk]

Hi there,

I thought there were "Cave lists" and detailed deckplans for every class aboard Titanic. However only the first class "Cave list" and detailed deckplan survived, cause they were taken from the sinking ship by two first class stewards, including Mr Herbert Cave.

Regards,
Rolf

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Just a point of clearification, Cave List is not a generic term for a cabin assignment list. It was a name applied to such a list which was found on the unfortunate Herbert Cave's body.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Daniel Rosenshine]

Another point about the "Cave list" which is not generally known, is that it was not only a first class cabin list. The second half of the list was the second class passenger list, but no cabin numbers.

Mike, do you know what deck or cabin Esther Hart was in? If it was on D deck, then yes getting a passenger's name and cabin was very easy as a second class steward's body was found with tickets for the entire D deck section in second class. Undoubtedly these tickets were forwarded to WSL in NY, however as other items forwarded there, the tickets are now missing, and most probably no longer exist.

Is it known though that there was a complete cabin list for at least 1st and second class. Miss Isham's family obviously also contacted WSL to find out she was in C49, and then contacted Gracie, and probably Marschal too.

Daniel.

 

[Hildo Thiel]

Hi all,

Thanks for the information.

So the "cave list" is so named because it was found on the body of Mr. Cave.

So maybe we must call it cabin list or some kind of a passenger list.

Regards,

Hildo

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Danial, wish I could help you on this, but I'm more of a tech kind of guy. I don't know as much about the passangers as I would like to.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Richard Dobrenel]

Hi you all,
I've a question,
Could the Cave List have been printed aboard the Titanic in order to make easier the work of the stewards (after that many passengers moved to other cabins)?It could explain the great differences between the prices paid by passengers and the cabins they occupied. But as Herbert Cave was a Saloon Steward, he did not nee the latest cabin list, what can explain some passengers moved after the printing of the list.
Hoping you can help me.
Richard

[Moderator's Note: This message, originally posted as a separate thread, has been moved to this pre-existing thread addressing the same subject. MAB]

 

[Richard Dobrenel]

is it possible??
Richard

 

[Michael H. Standart]

If you mean could an informal list have been cobbled together as an in house working document so the hotel staff could keep track of who was where and who was responsible for keeping it up?

Offhand, I would say the answer to that is "Yes."

>>It could explain the great differences between the prices paid by passengers and the cabins they occupied.<<

Errrrr...I'm not sure it could. The stewards didn't have any special need to know who paid how much for what, just where they were in their areas of responsibility. It's not as if this was an official document used for book keeping or for the immigration authorities.

 

[Richard Dobrenel]

That's exactly what I mean... The prices we can find on ET are the official prices paid at the offices of Paris,... So, if the passengers changed of room during the journey (and it was changed on the staff's lists), the prices and the occupied rooms look like very different.
Cordially,
Richard

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Richard, I'm not so sure were even on the same page here. The Cave list had nothing more on it then who was assigned to what cabin. It just wasn't concerned with who paid how much for what and didn't even have cabin prices on it. (See https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/cave_list.html )

All it was concerned with was who was being bunked where.

That's it.

 

[Richard Dobrenel]

I know that. But, on some discussion pages, I saw that Mr. X or Mrs. Y paid just £xxx xx s. for a large suite on B-Deck, e.g. So, this difference could be explained by the fact that the paid price (found on the page of this passenger) was the one paid in an office in England or France and that this passenger wanted to be moved to another cabin (which is noted on the Cave List) and paid the surplus to a staff member (purser?). This price is noted nowhere (it has maybe sunk with the ship). I suppose this fact explains the difference between the cabin occupied by the passenger (seen on the Cave List) and the paid price if there is a substantial difference.
Cordially.
Richard

 

[Lester Mitcham]

Hello Richard,

On this web-site under: Latest Research Articles you should read:
A THOROUGH ANALYSIS OF THE “CAVE LIST” by Daniel Klistorner - 1st April 2004

What you are suggesting does not accord with the likely date of the Cave List. - That is the cabin assignments on the Cave List pre-date Titanic's sailing by at least several days.

None of that goes any way to explaining the often large differences between the fare paid and the advertised Rate for a particular room. As for example Major Butt paying £26 11s. - That is the Minimum 1st Class fare from London. - £26 for his room and 11s for Rail travel from London to Southampton, showing as being in B-38 for which the advertised rate was £60.

The type of arrangement you speak of [on-board payments to the purser] could [only] have applied to the few passengers who are on the Cave List with no room assignment, to some of those who booked in the last few days, or to those who are on the Cave List with room numbers, but are known [or believed] to have occupied other rooms.