Child Passengers on the Titanic


Dec 6, 2000
1,480
3
221
Hello Mark,

Small correction there were 5 under "12" in 1st Class. - William Carter was 11.

Subject to any age corrections there were 20 aged 12 to 17 inclusive in 1st and 2nd Class.
8 in 1st Class of whom 1 died and 12 in 2nd Class of whom 4 died.

But that does not give you teenagers as 12 year olds are not teenagers and 18 to 19 year olds are.
 
Jun 12, 2004
2,131
0
161
Les, please don't get technical regarding what is determined as 'teenagers.' I think you know what I meant, hehe.

Age 12 I consider as a teen because many teens have gone through puberty by that time. However, biological development was far different at that time compared to today. 18 and 19, though teens, are obviously--and legally--adults, so I don't include them as teens. Still, I go by what I'm used to by todays standards. That, I know, has caused confusion. Sorry again.

Thanks for the info, Les. It's appreciated. Since my lists are incomplete, it was easier just asking you, as you've already done the foot-work.

By the way, were any of those lost 12-17 in 1st- and 2nd-class female or were they all young men? I see you've already presented the four lost 2nd-class.
 

Carol Goroff

Member
Jan 2, 2005
10
0
71
The concept "teenager" is a 20th century concept; so in 1912 it was not common. As society could afford to protect children, Juvenile codes were created. Generally the definition was a person under 18 years. Some sections specifically specified a child as under 12 years.

We seem to be going back to a younger age of defining a juvenile, especially when a violent crime has been committed, (re: case coming before the US Supreme Court). There is evidence that the brain does not mature in the concept of "moral judgement" until around the age of 26.

Read Aries, Centuries of Childhood" for a fascinating insight into children.

Carol Goodwin Goroff, Ph.D.
 
May 3, 2002
799
24
173
58
Wellington, New Zealand
"We seem to be going back to a younger age of defining a juvenile, especially when a violent crime has been committed, (re: case coming before the US Supreme Court). There is evidence that the brain does not mature in the concept of "moral judgement" until around the age of 26. "

Interesting point esp for the USA which places the standard age of consent at !8yo yet as you say makes children of 10-12 criminally responsible.
What is going on there?


Martin
 
Jan 28, 2003
2,525
5
223
Does it still vary from state to state in the USA, I wonder?

It seems curiously hard for countries to get some ethics and consistency into this sort of issue. It's only 10 years ago that we, here, tried two 11-year olds for the wilful murder of a toddler. They abducted him from a shopping mall and beat him to death. We tried them in an adult court - they sat there for 6 weeks, whilst people in wigs and gowns talked about things they couldn't possibly have understood. They were released with new identities when 18, to a great furore. During the trial, people surrounded the van taking them to court every day, banging, swearing, spitting and shouting at it - they don't do that to adults who murder children. So that would be evidence that not all brains mature in the concept of moral judgement at 26 - or beyond.

Children have always killed other children, and I think we learnt something from those dreadful scenes outside court. I don't think'd we'd do the same the next time. Still, at least we tried to educate and rehabilitate them, and then released them. And we've never executed anyone below the age of majority in the last 100 years - not that we do execute anyone now, nor have done for decades. But it is a muddle. Whatever legislators do, it always seems to go wrong sometimes. We now have anti-social behaviour orders (ASBOs) designed to curb bad but not criminal behaviour, and the newspapers are gleefully collecting stories of ridiculous applications of the law - like a Tourette's child being banned from swearing! It's actually supposed to restrain people from playing Guns & Roses at full blast 24 hours round the clock etc...
 
Nov 1, 2008
22
0
31
So, for all purposes of the ship, Dolly Sage was an adult at 14. Would she have felt herself "grown up", or still been at an age where she felt conflicted about joining her siblings in their games? (Working on a YA novel with her as the main character, but if she would have felt herself above the children, I might have to rethink a bit.) Any insights would be most appreciated! Thanks in advance.

Rie
 

Ben Lemmon

Member
Oct 9, 2009
525
0
71
Technically, yes, she would be considered an adult. As Lester has previously mentioned, boys and girls aged 12 or older would have been considered adults. Also, if you didn't know, 14 was a common marrying age around that time. If you check the record of Adele Nasser, it shows that she was only fourteen at the time of the disaster. However, she was from Lebanon, so I'm not entirely sure of the cultural rift between Western culture vs. places such as Lebanon, if any.

I know, though, that during the mid-19th century, it was not uncommon for women to get married around 14.

Perhaps it would depend on the class she was in, but I think she would have thought herself as grown up, especially since she was nearing the marrying age. Even if she wasn't going to be betrothed within the next few months, she would have still adopted more responsibility than that of a child around 8-12 years. Women around sixteen were adopting such roles as nursemaids, who were trusted with the well-being of their charges. So I doubt that she would have still considered herself a child since she was nearing the age of so much responsibility.

I'm assuming you're writing fiction. As such, there are some liberties you can take, as long as they don't seem too anachronistic. However, if you want to make it as realistic as possible, with cultural roles and such, I would suggest adopting the appropriate roles of the time. Also, concerning the character in your story, I would suggest (you don't have to follow it if you don't want to) that you change the main character's name. You could still base her off of Dolly Sage, but by changing her name, you avoid stepping on any relatives' toes. I, like you, have been in the process of writing a story, and I was advised to change the name of one of the minor characters for basically the same reason.

I hope all of this information was of some use to you. I hope to hear from you soon.
 

Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,045
61
308
UK
Child fares were available only to those aged under 12, and that's a situation still quite common today. But nobody seriously considered, then as now, that children above that age were young adults until they reached the age of 16. The legal significance of reaching various ages has always been a complex situation - see this thread:

https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5670/119611.html

Ben, in Britain in 1912 it was legally possible for 14-year olds to marry (with parental consent) but that would have been very rare and would have raised lots of eyebrows.
.
 
Nov 1, 2008
22
0
31
Thanks for the feedback, guys. I may well take your advice about changing the names later, but at this stage, it is helping me think of the characters to use their real names.
happy.gif


I was kind of leaning that way, Bob. Even if she was starting to consider herself a bit more grown up in general, it seems like the sheer wonder of the ship might have brought out the child in her. It lists her on the rolls here as "scholar", so it looks like she hadn't settled down too much yet.
 
May 27, 2007
3,917
3
0
I may well take your advice about changing the names later, but at this stage, it is helping me think of the characters to use their real names.
Do yourself a favor and get a Character Naming source book or name dictionary. This is great way to describe a character's personality or appearance or make a statement about your characters family or where they came from.
 
May 27, 2007
3,917
3
0
Does it still vary from state to state in the USA, I wonder? It does when a minor commits a crime like murder they can be put on trial as an Adult in certain States.
 
Nov 1, 2008
22
0
31
"Do yourself a favor and get a Character Naming source book or name dictionary. This is great way to describe a character's personality or appearance or make a statement about your characters family or where they came from."

Yes, I have several. This is not my first book.
happy.gif
I do think that the little bits we know about the Sage children are fascinating though, and they are helping my story come to life. Later, in the interest of many things, I may revise to remove them, but to build the framework, I am working with them as they are.
 

Ben Lemmon

Member
Oct 9, 2009
525
0
71
It does when a minor commits a crime like murder they can be put on trial as an Adult in certain States.
I know it has to deal with the severity of the crime. If someone commits a crime such as burglary as a minor, I believe they would go to Juvenile/Family court to be tried. However, if their crime involves murder or sexual assault, the juveniles are usually tried as adults, particularly if their crimes are especially heinous. There are extenuating circumstances that prevent the possibility of being tried as an adult. If the child wasn't aware of the consequences of their act, or if they were mentally impaired in any way, that is also taken into account. There are also circumstances where the parents can be charged with the murder their child commits. Consider, if you will, a bipolar child. If he has a particularly severe case of the disorder, he can be extremely difficult to handle, and his condition can only be helped by medicine. However, if his parents take him off the medication for some crackpot reason (no offense intended) and he enters a manic state, there is a possibility that he could commit murder. However, since his parents took him off the medication that was controlling him, they could be charged for his murder.

But, as Geo said, it does vary from state to state. You would have to check the local law guidelines in your area to be sure. I'm basing what I say off of things I have read and/or seen on television.

I also agree with Geo on getting a Character Naming Source Book. There can always be hidden meanings behind characters, and that's what makes it interesting. I am also writing a story, and many of the names have hidden messages behind them. I got the names from a Character Naming Source Book. For example, one of the characters in my novel has the name of William. William means "resolute protector," and he is the uncle of the main character. Take into account the fact they are on the Titanic, and you will figure out how he is a resolute protector.
 
May 27, 2007
3,917
3
0
Hello Ben and Rie.

But, as Geo said, it does vary from state to state. You would have to check the local law guidelines in your area to be sure. I'm basing what I say off of things I have read and/or seen on television.
That is so true. Depends on what is in the state laws and the circumstances of the crime.

As for Minority in 1912, I always wondered how old you'd have to be to get out of an orphanage and be independent. In my story I wrote in High School my character was independent at age 16 and also an Orphan.
 
Nov 1, 2008
22
0
31
Thanks for the titles, George. I will keep them in mind. However, I have spent WAY too much on Titanic references in the last few days to buy anything else any time soon...lol
 

Ben Lemmon

Member
Oct 9, 2009
525
0
71
Hello Rie,
Since you say that you are low on money, might I suggest a free website? I also used this for naming in my story, The title of the website is named Baby Hold, and it supplies various names of different national descent. It's pretty useful if you can't find that one specific name.

I know what you mean by saying that you do not have much money because of buying Titanic resources. Much of my paycheck earlier this year went toward purchasing reference material for my story. I think the most expensive piece of Titanic reference material was Titanic: the Ship Magnificent. Since I purchased it from the UK, it ended up costing $86 or so dollars to purchase the book and get it to my house. It did come rather rapidly, though.

Hey Geo,
I wouldn't think that you were too far off of the mark by making your child independent at age 16. There were some women who worked as nursemaids at that age, especially if they were orphans. They might have peddled as well, sort of like on My Fair Lady. Either that or they *ahem* traveled down the "other" road, if you catch my drift. I'm generalizing, I know, but from what I have gathered, those were the three main categories.
 
May 27, 2007
3,917
3
0
I'm generalizing, I know, but from what I have gathered, those were the three main categories.
Pretty much alas. It's tough being a girl on your own. My Character wanted to be an actress but I doubt she would have made it. I had her working in a factory in London but was very vague. She made cigars. I got that from a movie called Heavenly Days one of the early movies of Richard Gere's career. I remembered the heroine of that film saying she'd worked in a factory making cigs as a child and it stuck. But my character's working in a factory really didn't play in my story except that it made her want to get back home to America. I don't know if she would of done better there but she thought so.
 

Similar threads