Coal bunkers

Mike Spooner

Member
Jan 31, 2018
727
113
53
Sam, Thanks for your reply of the boilers not been lit. So now I can see there are 9 boilers where the coal from the fired bunker can be used. In Molony book he mention there is a possibility of coal bunker next to the fired bunker is also been emptied out to, in fear of the heat burning through the steel plate.
Looking at the capacity of the coal bunkers. A figure of 360 tons each is mention. Now one cannot say for sure how full this bunkers were before leaving Southampton? As a figures of 5,892 tons is mention when leaving Southampton. As total capacity is 6,611tons. About 11% down from full capacity.
Question: Are there any figures on how much each bunker was in fill in tons?
The steam working pressure at 215psi. So what was the safety relief valve set to?
 

Mike Spooner

Member
Jan 31, 2018
727
113
53
10% above working pressure mmm that can push it to 236.5 psi! As stated by Cockburn & Co of Liverpool 215 psi and no more!
A fireman John Thompson, who said: They carried 215 pounds of steam all the time. The boilers could not stand any more!
Now here is another question. Looking at Richard P. de Kerbrech excellence book. DOWN AMONGST THE BLACK GANG the sketch drawing of the Scotch boiler. It show the safety valves at the top of the boiler. However when the boilers were been relieved of pressure the noise was almost the point of be deafening and difficult to communicate with officers on launching of lifeboats. So were was these relieve valve set on the boiler?
 
Mar 22, 2003
5,419
765
273
Chicago, IL, USA
A fireman John Thompson, who said: They carried 215 pounds of steam all the time. The boilers could not stand any more!
All of the boilers were constructed in accordance with the rules of the Board of Trade for a working pressure of 215 pounds-per-square-inch (psi), and were tested to a pressure of 430 psi. If You set the safeties to blow at the working pressure they will be popping all the time.
 

Mike Spooner

Member
Jan 31, 2018
727
113
53
Yes the boilers were hydraulic tested to 430 psi. Which I have to say is a good sound test. But when under full heat not necessary the same results! As I know from own experience testing hydraulic welded joints on pipework and cylinders. Pressure tested twice the working pressure cold could well show no signs of leaks. But when applying working temperatures it can be quite surprising leaks can occur.
Setting the safety relief valves at a set figure. Its important to know what side of the tolerance and the range in %. You have three choices. Plus & Minus of 215 psi. minus of 215 psi or plus on 215 psi. Its also important the test gauge is a current calibrated to.
Reading Molony book he has drag George Tulloch of RMST Inc into the discussion. Believed that the uncontrolled fire aboard the ship offered reason for attempting to reach New York quickly! Was convinced that iceberg bump triggered a massive explosion that such a blast blew outward hole in the hull! Claim the detonation had been fuelled by gas from the fire had been raging in the bunker!
He found it incredible the ship could have set sail with one of her 30 feet high coal bunkers ablaze! Which I have to agree with to.
Now before I get too involved in what Molony has to say in his book. I ask for those who have years more experience than me on what true is there on this subject?
 

Seumas

Member
Mar 25, 2019
402
159
43
Glasgow, Scotland
Senan Molony's completely ridiculous claims were torpedoed in spectacular fashion by Bruce Beveridge, Mark Chirnside,Tad Fitch, Ioannis Georgiou, Steve Hall, J. Kent Layton & Bill Wormstedt - in short, people who know what they are talking about.

Read their comprehensive rebuttal here:


Of course some people just want there to be a big juicy evil plot lurking in the background and only see what they want to see.
 

Mike Spooner

Member
Jan 31, 2018
727
113
53
Senan Molony's completely ridiculous claims!
I think we should be cautious here as the claims in Molony book are from George Tulloch, and not land up for slander case against the man!
I have looked into the back ground of George Harmon Tulloch who died in 2004 at the age of 59. Tulloch seems to hit off well with some of members from Encyclopaedia Titanica, and who also have said kind words for the mam.
Mr G. Tulloch had hold the salvage right for the Titanic wreck and co leader of 5 expeditions to recover artefacts where more than 4 million people have seen. The President of RMST. Involved with 3 books Charlie Rose, Titanic Death Dream and Beyond Titanic.
Not too sure if Charlie Rose has any thing to do with Titanic. But at the end of the day he seems to be well up on the Titanic history.
As for Bruce Beveridge, Mark Chirnside, Tad Fitch, Loannis Georgiou, Steve Hall, J. Kent Layton & Bill Wormstedt, they too are well adverse on the subject of Titanic and have written or involved with some excellent researched books. But again we cannot say for 100% what happen in April 1912, as the key evident is missing that of the ship log books from the captain point of view and chief engineer who was the second highest pay crew member on the ship. Plus the fact they both perished to tell their side of the story.
As far the two inquires outcome was far from the true and very poorly investigated before hand with some outrageous statements said again captain Stanley Lord of Californian for not coming to the rescues of the 1500 who died. With no rehearing allowed. What a complete political fast indeed!
It is through E T I have learn a lot more of the real true and we cannot dismay all theories that have been put forward. We hear the story of John Dilley a fireman who claims the fire was never put out and getting worse! As other firemen claim the fire was put out, so who do we believe? But there again were they working for the interest of the company to save their job!
We see biography books written by or for the survivors years later on telling a different story to what actually happen!
That is what I find the fascination of the magnificent unsinkable ship!
 

Seumas

Member
Mar 25, 2019
402
159
43
Glasgow, Scotland
So you never actually bothered reading "Fire and Ice" because it totally destroys Molony's juicy sensationalist case of fires, explosions and cover ups that you are attached to ?

Could you explain please then why you think that you know better than Bruce Beveridge, Mark Chirnside, Tad Fitch, Ioannis Georgiou, Steve Hall, J. Kent Layton & Bill Wormstedt ? They know more about the Titanic than you or I ever will in lifetime.

Unlike Mr Molony these chaps actually back up there claims with in depth evidence and analysis. They don't just take one man's (highly dubious) word for things.

That's why you should read the link provided above to "Fire and Ice". To see how historical research and analysis is really done.

The authors of "Fire and Ice" actually deal with the lurid claims of Christopher Shulver - alias John Dilley (a habitual petty thief with a habit of bending the truth) if you bother to read it.

How exactly am I slandering the late George Tulloch ? That one just went completely over my head. You'll have to explain that one to me.
 

Rancor

Member
Jun 23, 2017
259
153
53
10% above working pressure mmm that can push it to 236.5 psi! As stated by Cockburn & Co of Liverpool 215 psi and no more!
A fireman John Thompson, who said: They carried 215 pounds of steam all the time. The boilers could not stand any more!
Now here is another question. Looking at Richard P. de Kerbrech excellence book. DOWN AMONGST THE BLACK GANG the sketch drawing of the Scotch boiler. It show the safety valves at the top of the boiler. However when the boilers were been relieved of pressure the noise was almost the point of be deafening and difficult to communicate with officers on launching of lifeboats. So were was these relieve valve set on the boiler?
As you say safety valves were on top of each boiler, but the outlet from this valve was piped from the valve all the way up the side of the funnels. This allowed it to discharge high above the decks. Otherwise if a safety lifted and vented straight into the boiler room the results would be very unpleasant for those inside!
 
Mar 18, 2008
2,275
568
183
Germany
10% above working pressure mmm that can push it to 236.5 psi! As stated by Cockburn & Co of Liverpool 215 psi and no more!

Yes the boilers were hydraulic tested to 430 psi. Which I have to say is a good sound test. But when under full heat not necessary the same results! As I know from own experience testing hydraulic welded joints on pipework and cylinders. Pressure tested twice the working pressure cold could well show no signs of leaks. But when applying working temperatures it can be quite surprising leaks can occur.
Setting the safety relief valves at a set figure. Its important to know what side of the tolerance and the range in %. You have three choices. Plus & Minus of 215 psi. minus of 215 psi or plus on 215 psi. Its also important the test gauge is a current calibrated to.
Actually everything has been tested more then once. The safety valves were tested several times and the time stopped to note when they started to react. The safety valves were set to 25 psi (about 11,60 % over the working pressure).
What has Cockburn & Co of Liverpool to do with it?! They did not build boilers for Olympic class.


Reading Molony book he has drag George Tulloch of RMST Inc into the discussion. Believed that the uncontrolled fire aboard the ship offered reason for attempting to reach New York quickly! Was convinced that iceberg bump triggered a massive explosion that such a blast blew outward hole in the hull! Claim the detonation had been fuelled by gas from the fire had been raging in the bunker!
Oh did he? Strange that he did not quote him what he has to say about Californian. However back to subject. The statements by Tulloch were from the early 1990s. I think they are from 1994 when they were going to inspect the hole on the starboard side of the hull at bow wreck. It was nothing new at it already come up in 1987 when the hole (which Dr. Ballard completely missed) was "discovered" and made public. In truth it has nothing to do with the coal "fire". The hole is far away, no boiler room is located there.
 
Mar 18, 2008
2,275
568
183
Germany
But again we cannot say for 100% what happen in April 1912, as the key evident is missing that of the ship log books from the captain point of view and chief engineer who was the second highest pay crew member on the ship. Plus the fact they both perished to tell their side of the story.
I think people are putting to much in the log books. Log books did not contain details people are looking for.

We hear the story of John Dilley a fireman who claims the fire was never put out and getting worse! As other firemen claim the fire was put out, so who do we believe? But there again were they working for the interest of the company to save their job!
Quite simple, if fire was never put out, the coal bunker had not been empty as stated by Barrett and Hendrickson and those invovlved with working out the coal bunker would be still working on it. Aside from Barrett and Hendickson we also have Dillon who was working clearing out the bunker. Dillon belonged to BR 1 but the boilers were not lit. At the time of the collision he was in the main engine room. If there was still a coal bunker "on fire" he would have been there and not in the main engine room.
 
Mar 22, 2003
5,419
765
273
Chicago, IL, USA
By the way, there was no raging fire in the coal bunker. To get a raging fire you need lots and lots of oxygen. Titanic was doing about the same as Olympic did on her maiden voyage, perhaps a notch better, as was expected. If they were in that much of a hurry to get to NY because of this so called raging fire, then why was it that the last set of double-ended boilers were first lit up on Sunday morning?

People need to recognized sensationalist garbage when they see it. In this day and age of social media, with all the junk that people put up, some of which comes in the form of tweets from the highest places of government, it's no wonder that people believe whatever is written down in print or shown on badly researched documentaries aimed at getting high ratings.
 

B-rad

Member
Jul 1, 2015
486
112
53
38
Tacoma, WA
According to a period Marine Engineering book, I found this:

In order to set the valve or in other words to find the pressure t which it will blow off, we must know the diameter of the valve; the weight of the valve and valve spindle, the length, weight and center of gravity of the lever and the weight of the ball at the end. The center of gravity of the lever may be found by balancing it on a knife edge.

Then to find the pressure at which the safety valve will blow off:

1. Multiply the weight of the ball in pounds by its distance in inches from the fulcrum.
2: Multiply the weight of the valve and spindle in pounds by their distance in inches from the fulcrum.
3: Multiply the weight of the lever arm in pounds by the distance of its center of gravity from the fulcrum in inches.
Then ass together the three products, (1), (2), and (3).
Divide this sum by the area of the valve in square inches multiplied by its distance from the fulcrum. The result will be the pressure in pounds per square inch.

Example. Suppose a weight of 80 pounds is hung on the end of a lever which weighs 40 pounds. The center of gravity of the lever is 13 inches from the fulcrum and the ball is 38 inches from the fulcrum. The valve and spindle weigh 20 pounds and are 5 inches from the fulcrum. If the valve is 5 inches in diameter at what pressure will the safety valve blow?

(1) 80x38=3040
(2) 20x5= 100
(3) 40x13= 520
Sum = 3660

The area of the valve is (3.1416 x 5 Squared) / 4 = 19.635 sq. in, and is 5 inches from the fulcrum, hench 3660/ (19.635x5) = 37. + pounds.
 

Seumas

Member
Mar 25, 2019
402
159
43
Glasgow, Scotland
You know something, if Mr Molony ever does actually came out and admit that he got it all badly wrong and disowns this foolish theory then I would at least have some respect for him.

You know what, "Fire and Ice" is such a great antidote to this all this coal bunker fire rubbish that I'm going to post the link again


"Fire and Ice" is one of the best specialist research articles on RMS Titanic I've read and a textbook example of how to do research into the disaster properly.

And a word of praise for the authors of "Fire and Ice" - Bruce Beveridge, Mark Chirnside,Tad Fitch, Ioannis Georgiou, Steve Hall, J. Kent Layton & Bill Wormstedt - who all must have given up much of their free time for weeks or even months in compiling the article. Researching it must also have cost them a fair few quid in research fees and travel expenses etc.

There might be one or two aspects of the Titanic disaster that they don't all agree on but one thing they did agree on was that this stupid theory was the most outrageous rubbish and had to be fully countered. They also provided this work completely free for anyone to read or download on the web, they saw no monetary gain out this.

In addition to the above principle authors of "Fire and Ice", it's also worth mentioning that they acknowledge help from Samuel Halpern, Don Lynch, Günter Bäbler, Jackie Fitch and Cathy Akers-Jordan in helping to deliver this crippling broadside against lacklustre research and the pursuit of sensationalism.

The matter of this tiresome coal bunker fire has been settled. It was not a cause of the Titanic's sinking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tim Aldrich

Mike Spooner

Member
Jan 31, 2018
727
113
53
There seems to be miss understanding here. I am only quoted from Sean Molony book. As in his book he quoted that it was George Tulloch. Was convinced that the initial iceberg bump triggered a massive explosion, that such a blast blew an outward hole in the hull! There are not my words but as quoted in Molony book!
So lets try another one. John Dilley a bit of a tearaway in his private live. But as a fireman he seems to be good enough to be re-employed with White Star on Adriatic ship which will end his life in 1922, as an explosion took place in No 3 reserve coal bunker. The explosion was found to have arisen from spontaneous combustion of Welsh coal, the same problem Dilley grappled with on Titanic! True or false? Remember not my words! If you don't ask the question you will never known?
 

B-rad

Member
Jul 1, 2015
486
112
53
38
Tacoma, WA
According to a period Marine Engineering book, I found this:

In order to set the valve or in other words to find the pressure t which it will blow off, we must know the diameter of the valve; the weight of the valve and valve spindle, the length, weight and center of gravity of the lever and the weight of the ball at the end. The center of gravity of the lever may be found by balancing it on a knife edge.

Then to find the pressure at which the safety valve will blow off:

1. Multiply the weight of the ball in pounds by its distance in inches from the fulcrum.
2: Multiply the weight of the valve and spindle in pounds by their distance in inches from the fulcrum.
3: Multiply the weight of the lever arm in pounds by the distance of its center of gravity from the fulcrum in inches.
Then ass together the three products, (1), (2), and (3).
Divide this sum by the area of the valve in square inches multiplied by its distance from the fulcrum. The result will be the pressure in pounds per square inch.

Example. Suppose a weight of 80 pounds is hung on the end of a lever which weighs 40 pounds. The center of gravity of the lever is 13 inches from the fulcrum and the ball is 38 inches from the fulcrum. The valve and spindle weigh 20 pounds and are 5 inches from the fulcrum. If the valve is 5 inches in diameter at what pressure will the safety valve blow?

(1) 80x38=3040
(2) 20x5= 100
(3) 40x13= 520
Sum = 3660

The area of the valve is (3.1416 x 5 Squared) / 4 = 19.635 sq. in, and is 5 inches from the fulcrum, hench 3660/ (19.635x5) = 37. + pounds.
Well... Looking back on this, I tried my best to make the math comprehensive and there are a few gramatic errors most of all the 'a**' word I would like to apologize for. I must have hit ss instead of 'dd' on my keypad & didn't realize. Sorry.
 

Mike Spooner

Member
Jan 31, 2018
727
113
53
Thanks for the complicated formulated theory of a pressure safety valve! The only thing missing one has to consider the mount of volume of steam to be release. Hence probably why two valves. If one looks at the picture or photo in Owners Workshop Manual book by R. Kerbrech and D. Hutching of the valve. One can see there is a paddock in place! Which to me indicate the important of the valve is set to the correct pressure and not to be tampered with at any time.