Collapsible C stories


Dec 2, 2000
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Easley South Carolina
I don't know offhand but the list of those known or reasonably believed to have been in the boat can be found HERE. I seem to recall that Frankie Goldsmith was very reluctant to discuss the sinking...a common occurance I might add. I recall that he mentioned the roar of cheering at a stadium sports event reminded him of the cries he heard after the ship sank. Not surprising that he tended to avoid such events.
 

Chris Dohany

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Jan 8, 2001
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In the times Frank Goldsmith did recount his story he always believed that he was in collapsible D, however details from his accounts as well as those from his mother strongly point to 'C.' In addition to the Goldsmiths I can think of William Carter, Margaret Devany, May Howard, Abraham Hyman, Shawneene Whabee, and crewmen Albert Pearcey and Albert Hunt. I know there must be others - I'm just not remembering. Some of the aforementioned accounts are on this site and some are in the inquiry testimony transcripts.
 
Apr 16, 2001
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Hi Paul,

Amy Stanley also left a detailed account of her experiences aboard collapsible C.

The majority of the survivors in this boat was Syrians - and many of their recollections are disappointingly vague. Most of them remembered the gunshots though.

Mike Findlay
 
Apr 25, 2001
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Michael, are we absolutely sure that Amy Stanley actually left in C? Hilda Hellström also describes leaving the ship in a boat with canvas sides which had 'Italians' in it and she thougth there were 35 people in it - her story matches boat C perfectly. She does not, however, mention anything about shootings near her boat. Anna Salkjelsvik doesn't mention shootings either, by the way.

Peter
 
Apr 16, 2001
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Hey Peter,

Many people who were in boat C didn't mention the shootings but a fair number of Syrians did who were there did.

As I mentioned above, and as we've discussed for years, some of the Syrians leave much to be desired since we never know how much of their tale is factual or reporter influenced.

It is my belief that Amy Stanley was in boat C, although I've never seen anything contradictory.

Shall we start a thread on the events at boat C? That would be very interesting given the speculation over the gunshots.

Just last month, Mary Nackid's grandson told me that his grandmother, who didn't like to speak about the disaster, told him that she saw two men from Lebanon shot as she entered her lifeboat. She was so upset about it that she covered up her husband, who had managed to get in the boat with her, with her skirt. Other women covered him as well according to Mrs. Nackid.

An interesting scenario to be sure -- I hope others will add their thoughts.

Hope you're doing well,

Best,

Mike
 
Apr 16, 2001
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Hey Peter,

I'm not 100% certain about Mrs. Whabee being in collapsible C either - although she was certainly in one of the two collapsibles to leave the ship under davits.

The Syrians are tricky - many of them had assembled near boat C but at some point a fair number of them managed to cross the deck and arrive in the vicinity of where boat D was loading. Were they directed there? or did they strike out on their own?

Mike
 
Apr 25, 2001
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Hello again, Mike. I remember seeing that Mrs Peter said she was in a boat which was not crowded at all - and Mrs Whabee said Mrs Peter was in her boat. That's why I believe they were in D rather than C. Admittedly - I wasn't there, so I really don't know.
I find it interesting that the Syrians mention shootings, whereas the other survivors from boat C don't. Is it possible that, in fact, some of the Syrians actually left in boat 14, what with the shootings and all?
Some of the stories I've read are rather vague - take Mrs Yazbeck for instance. Her boat wasn't really full, either. I have a feeling she, her sister and nephews might have entered No 16 or possibly No 10, in the vicinity of No 14, where guns were used.
 

Inger Sheil

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Dec 3, 2000
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Bill Wormstedt's site has some material from Abraham Hyman, including a transcript from an article in the New York Herald:

home comcast net %7Ebwormst/titanic/shots/shots.htm[/url]

It's a curious piece - the headlines say this:
SAW CHIEF OFFICER WILDE END HIS LIFE WITH PISTOL
-----
Abraham Hyman Tells of Seeing Him Struggling to Keep Third Class Passengers from Stampeding - Hundreds Blown from the Titanic by Explosions - Boat Load Capsizes

And the reporter states that:
Abraham Hyman, of Manchester, England, who was coming to this country to join a brother in Paterson, N.J., is one of the passengers who told about seeing Chief Officer Wilde rushing around with a revolver in his hand. Mr. Hyman was a third class passenger, and is one of the few men on that list that escaped with his life. He said after the lifeboat in which he left the steamship put out some distance shrill cries and screams could be heard distinctly.

There was not much panic before he left the Titanic, he said, except when the chief officer fired into a belligerent group of third class passengers. A man standing next to him had his chin shot off, he said.
The 'chin shot off' appears in other accounts as well - some sources suggest Murdoch might have been the shooter.
 
Apr 25, 2001
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Hello Inger. Abraham Hyman was in boat No 13 as far as I know, according to a lengthy interview I have seen. Nothing is mentioned in this interview about shootings of any sort.

Best regards,

Peter
 
Dec 6, 2000
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My site, which Inger points to, also says:

"Another account by Hyman, from the New York Herald, April 19th, 1912, claims that he saw Chief Officer Wilde shot himself with a pistol. Careful reading of the article, however, shows that this is not what Hyman said, though it is part of the headline. In fact, in this account, or other accounts from Hyman, he does not say who he saw firing shots.

Hyman appears to have left the Titanic on one of the aft lifeboats, probably #13. The New York Herald account above mentions leaving on "the next to last lifeboat in that part of the ship" and avoiding the pump discharge, both of which are known to have occured with #13."
 
Apr 25, 2001
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Who, then, have we got as first-hand witnesses of the alleged shootings at/near boat C?
I remember Hugh Woolner said something to that effect, but
a) he was on the port side at the time and
b) his impression was that there was firing in the air and that nobody was injured.
 

Bob Godfrey

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Nov 22, 2002
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Woolner was on the port side when he first heard sounds of a disturbance ('a certain kind of shouting') on the other side. This prompted him to cross over (presumably using the bridge) and it was just as he arrived on the starboard side that he had a clear view of two muzzle flashes pointing into the air. At the same time he heard Murdoch shouting at men to get out of the boat.

Frank Goldsmith (who always insisted, rightly or wrongly, that he escaped in boat D) had this to say: "You may have read about this man shooting negroes on board the Titanic. Folks, that was an absolute lie, because the man who was doing the shooting was only four feet away from little Frankie. And what was he firing? Not a rifle, a pistol. And in what direction was he firing it? Straight at the sky, as a warning, because as you could well imagine many people were learning that this was the last boat and they'd better get over there or else. And they were trying to rush to collapsible D to climb aboard it, and this was a warning to them. Keep back."
 
Feb 23, 2007
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Frank Goldsmith was not in "C" but always stated he was in "D". This is propagated by those who choose to use portions of his interviews but not all of them. Including Mr. Edward kamuta who was supposed to be his friend. In his accounts he would state how calm and orderly the boat deck was and never mentioned J. Bruce Ismay as being in his boat to the best of my knowledge. As most of you know the boat deck on the starboard side was in chaos at this time but the port side was in an orderly way as expressed by numerous witnesses. As far as these two items go if anyone has any evidence to the contrary please contact me and I will gladly research them and add another posting. Of course I am prejudice by the fact that he was my Grandfather, but that doesn't mean I won't listen to reason and facts.
 

Bob Godfrey

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Nov 22, 2002
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Hallo, Thomas. The words I quoted above were transcribed (by myself) directly from an audio recording of one of your Grandfather's talks. So you can take that as evidence that he did, at least on one occasion, state that the situation was not calm and orderly on the boat deck at the point where he was waiting to board. Regarding Mr Ismay, Frank didn't know the man so he could not have known whether or not he was in the boat.
 
Mar 23, 2008
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Miss. Emily Louisa Badman was rescued on callapsible Lifeboat "C" and she reported in several interviews that she had seen shooting on the deck.
This she reported to a Hudson Dispatch reporter,she saw officers shoot some men who tried to get into lifeboats and others fall in the water when they attempted to get into already crowded boats.

She reported that as they moved away from the ship she could hear the band playing, "Nearer My God To Thee".
Miss. Badman may be a distant relative of mine. At this time I am in the process of investigating it.
If anyone knows anything about her and her family after she died at the age of 52, please e-mail me.
Your help is appreciated.
 
A

Aaron_2016

Guest
I have read accounts that describe the terrible chaos around Collapsible C and how the boat was crowded by men fighting to get in and the officer having to draw or fire his gun to force them away. The port list was increasing and the order was given for all passengers and crew to make their way to the starboard side "to keep the ship up as long as possible" which undoubtedly brought more chaos to this boat. Yet according to Mr. Ismay it was a very quiet scene and how there was nobody there. I am puzzled by this. There was also problems with the lowering of the boat as the occupants had to reach out and push themselves away from the side as the boat was pinned against the rivets. QM Rowe also described this incident:


"All the time my boat was being lowered the rubbing strake kept on catching on the rivets down the ship's side, and it was as much as we could do to keep her off.......It took us a good five minutes to lower the boat on account of this rubbing going down."


Margaret Devaney was in the boat. Her profile page says - 'She said that as the boat was lowered it got caught on the ship's rivets, the crew had trouble loosening the falls to free the boat. One of them begged the passengers for help in cutting them. Margaret discovered she had a pocket knife on her and gave it to the crew by which they were able to cut the collapsible free.'

But in her 1973 interview she said the knife was used to unlash the oars so they could finally row away from the ship. Was the knife used for both occasions?

Then we come to the timing. QM Rowe said the collision occurred at 11.40 pm and when he got into the boat he said - "It was 1.25 am when I left the bridge to get into the boat. When the boat was in the water the well deck was submerged."

Yet according to Albert Pearcey who was also in collapsible C.

Q - Did you notice whether she was down by the head?
A - No, I did not notice.
Q - Did you notice whether she appeared to be going deeper into the water forward? Did you notice that?
A - No.
Q - Then you rowed away?
A - Yes.
Q - Did you see the vessel go down?
A - Yes.
Q - Were you facing her when she went down?
A - Yes.

Yet Rowe said the well deck was submerged. Does this mean the entire ship was sinking and was submerged down to C-deck fore and aft, because Pearcey did not believe she was sinking by the head when he looked at her?

Rowe said he got into the boat at 1.25 am. Pearcey said:

"It was 20 minutes to two when we came away from her."

Q - That will help us. It was 20 minutes to two, you remember, when you started rowing away from the ship’s side. Is that right?
A - Yes.
Q - Not when you came up on deck, but when you started rowing away?
A - Yes, when we got away. It was just in time.
Q - How do you remember it was 20 minutes to two?
A - Because I looked at the time.
Q - That is what I wanted to know. Where did you look at the time?
A - One of the passengers had the time.
Q - And it was 20 minutes to 2?
A - Yes.

So Rowe entered the boat at 1.25 am and it took 15 minutes to fill, lower, and finally begin to row the boat away and then it was 1.40 am when Pearcey looked at the time on a passenger's watch. Now if that passenger's watch was off by 20 minutes does that mean it was really 2 am when the boat rowed away? If Rowe's timing of entering the boat was also off by 20 minutes then does that mean he did not feel the collision at 11.40 pm but really at 12 midnight?


Then we come to the ship exploding and breaking in two.


Mr. Carter (collapsible C)
"We were about a mile away from the Titanic when she went down......I looked around just as the Titanic went down, being attracted by the explosions. Mr. Ismay did not turn and look, but instead was very quiet, pulling on the oars."


Emily Badman (collapsible C)
"We had gone about a mile when there were two explosions and the Titanic split in two. The front end went down at once and the back stood up so that it was almost straight and then went out of sight."


Yet Albert Pearcey would not tell the British Inquiry that he witnessed the ship break in two. Was he 'got at' and told not to mention the ship breaking?

Q - Did you see the vessel go down?
A - Yes.
Q - Were you facing her when she went down?
A - Yes.

Q - What did you next see happen to the stern?
A - She went down, you see. It upset me, and I could not exactly say.
Q - It upset you and you cannot give us a description of what happened?
A - No.

Q - Will you tell the Court what you saw? Explain to the Court what you saw when the vessel sank?
A - Of course, when she sank she went down. She went down this way (showing). I could not exactly say. I am only rough myself, and I cannot describe it.


.
 
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