Collapsible C stories

[Paul Lee]

I thought there was pandemonium on the port side as boat D was prepared for launching?

I've included Frank Goldsmith's account in http://www.paullee.com/titanic/ismaysescape.html

I am interested in your use of the word "supposed" in your post; was there some form of animosity between them?

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Hallo, Thomas. The words I quoted above were transcribed (by myself) directly from an audio recording of one of your Grandfather's talks. So you can take that as evidence that he did, at least on one occasion, state that the situation was not calm and orderly on the boat deck at the point where he was waiting to board. Regarding Mr Ismay, Frank didn't know the man so he could not have known whether or not he was in the boat.

 

[melissa townsend]

Miss. Emily Louisa Badman was rescued on callapsible Lifeboat "C" and she reported in several interviews that she had seen shooting on the deck.
This she reported to a Hudson Dispatch reporter,she saw officers shoot some men who tried to get into lifeboats and others fall in the water when they attempted to get into already crowded boats.

She reported that as they moved away from the ship she could hear the band playing, "Nearer My God To Thee".
Miss. Badman may be a distant relative of mine. At this time I am in the process of investigating it.
If anyone knows anything about her and her family after she died at the age of 52, please e-mail me.
Your help is appreciated.

 

[melissa townsend]

IF you are interested to learn more about Miss. Emily Louisa Badman you can visit,
www.encyclopiedia-titanica.org/print/353/
The title of the article is Titanic sinking survivor Dies in Bergen Home.
You can also find info at
www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/669/

 

[Aaron_2016]

I have read accounts that describe the terrible chaos around Collapsible C and how the boat was crowded by men fighting to get in and the officer having to draw or fire his gun to force them away. The port list was increasing and the order was given for all passengers and crew to make their way to the starboard side "to keep the ship up as long as possible" which undoubtedly brought more chaos to this boat. Yet according to Mr. Ismay it was a very quiet scene and how there was nobody there. I am puzzled by this. There was also problems with the lowering of the boat as the occupants had to reach out and push themselves away from the side as the boat was pinned against the rivets. QM Rowe also described this incident:


"All the time my boat was being lowered the rubbing strake kept on catching on the rivets down the ship's side, and it was as much as we could do to keep her off.......It took us a good five minutes to lower the boat on account of this rubbing going down."


Margaret Devaney was in the boat. Her profile page says - 'She said that as the boat was lowered it got caught on the ship's rivets, the crew had trouble loosening the falls to free the boat. One of them begged the passengers for help in cutting them. Margaret discovered she had a pocket knife on her and gave it to the crew by which they were able to cut the collapsible free.'

But in her 1973 interview she said the knife was used to unlash the oars so they could finally row away from the ship. Was the knife used for both occasions?

Then we come to the timing. QM Rowe said the collision occurred at 11.40 pm and when he got into the boat he said - "It was 1.25 am when I left the bridge to get into the boat. When the boat was in the water the well deck was submerged."

Yet according to Albert Pearcey who was also in collapsible C.

Q - Did you notice whether she was down by the head?
A - No, I did not notice.
Q - Did you notice whether she appeared to be going deeper into the water forward? Did you notice that?
A - No.
Q - Then you rowed away?
A - Yes.
Q - Did you see the vessel go down?
A - Yes.
Q - Were you facing her when she went down?
A - Yes.

Yet Rowe said the well deck was submerged. Does this mean the entire ship was sinking and was submerged down to C-deck fore and aft, because Pearcey did not believe she was sinking by the head when he looked at her?

Rowe said he got into the boat at 1.25 am. Pearcey said:

"It was 20 minutes to two when we came away from her."

Q - That will help us. It was 20 minutes to two, you remember, when you started rowing away from the ship’s side. Is that right?
A - Yes.
Q - Not when you came up on deck, but when you started rowing away?
A - Yes, when we got away. It was just in time.
Q - How do you remember it was 20 minutes to two?
A - Because I looked at the time.
Q - That is what I wanted to know. Where did you look at the time?
A - One of the passengers had the time.
Q - And it was 20 minutes to 2?
A - Yes.

So Rowe entered the boat at 1.25 am and it took 15 minutes to fill, lower, and finally begin to row the boat away and then it was 1.40 am when Pearcey looked at the time on a passenger's watch. Now if that passenger's watch was off by 20 minutes does that mean it was really 2 am when the boat rowed away? If Rowe's timing of entering the boat was also off by 20 minutes then does that mean he did not feel the collision at 11.40 pm but really at 12 midnight?


Then we come to the ship exploding and breaking in two.


Mr. Carter (collapsible C)
"We were about a mile away from the Titanic when she went down......I looked around just as the Titanic went down, being attracted by the explosions. Mr. Ismay did not turn and look, but instead was very quiet, pulling on the oars."


Emily Badman (collapsible C)
"We had gone about a mile when there were two explosions and the Titanic split in two. The front end went down at once and the back stood up so that it was almost straight and then went out of sight."


Yet Albert Pearcey would not tell the British Inquiry that he witnessed the ship break in two. Was he 'got at' and told not to mention the ship breaking?

Q - Did you see the vessel go down?
A - Yes.
Q - Were you facing her when she went down?
A - Yes.

Q - What did you next see happen to the stern?
A - She went down, you see. It upset me, and I could not exactly say.
Q - It upset you and you cannot give us a description of what happened?
A - No.

Q - Will you tell the Court what you saw? Explain to the Court what you saw when the vessel sank?
A - Of course, when she sank she went down. She went down this way (showing). I could not exactly say. I am only rough myself, and I cannot describe it.


.

 

[Leila Salloum Elias]

Hey Peter,

Many people who were in boat C didn't mention the shootings but a fair number of Syrians did who were there did.

As I mentioned above, and as we've discussed for years, some of the Syrians leave much to be desired since we never know how much of their tale is factual or reporter influenced.

It is my belief that Amy Stanley was in boat C, although I've never seen anything contradictory.

Shall we start a thread on the events at boat C? That would be very interesting given the speculation over the gunshots.

Just last month, Mary Nackid's grandson told me that his grandmother, who didn't like to speak about the disaster, told him that she saw two men from Lebanon shot as she entered her lifeboat. She was so upset about it that she covered up her husband, who had managed to get in the boat with her, with her skirt. Other women covered him as well according to Mrs. Nackid.

An interesting scenario to be sure -- I hope others will add their thoughts.

Hope you're doing well,

Best,

Mike

"As I mentioned above, and as we've discussed for years, some of the Syrians leave much to be desired since we never know how much of their tale is factual or reporter influenced."
Wow, just read this.... a little eurocentric, n'est-pas? The Syrian passengers, like the other passengers aboard the ship, suffered the traumatization of the chaos, sinking, and seeing others shot. There were initial first hand eye-witness reports by some of those Syrians who survived and reported what they saw, without any 'reporter influence'. The statement makes it eerily sound like had the Syrians not been Syrian, then their statements would be more factual???

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Amy Stanley also left a detailed account of her experiences aboard collapsible C.

Amy Stanley wrote a 6-page letter about her survival and a couple of years ago someone posted an extract of the manuscript here. I have saved a copy.

Wow, just read this.... a little eurocentric, n'est-pas? The statement makes it eerily sound like had the Syrians not been Syrian, then their statements would be more factual???

There is nothing Eurocentric about it, but I smell rather "over-touchy" feelings whenever the Syrians on board the Titanic are mentioned. Statements from several survivors from Europe or European heritage have equally been questioned over several threads and so needlessly playing the race card is inappropriate and uncalled for. I am an Asian myself and agree that there is a lot of inconsistency and hyperbole from the Syrian survivors, if a certain book that I made the mistake of wasting money on to buy is anything to go by. I don't know if it is first hand or "reporter influenced" but even if part of their collective statements or true, the final 20 minutes on board the Titanic sounds more like a Turkey Shoot.

 

[Leila Salloum Elias]

Amy Stanley wrote a 6-page letter about her survival and a couple of years ago someone posted an extract of the manuscript here. I have saved a copy.


There is nothing Eurocentric about it, but I smell rather "over-touchy" feelings whenever the Syrians on board the Titanic are mentioned. Statements from several survivors from Europe or European heritage have equally been questioned over several threads and so needlessly playing the race card is inappropriate and uncalled for. I am an Asian myself and agree that there is a lot of inconsistency and hyperbole from the Syrian survivors, if a certain book that I made the mistake of wasting money on to buy is anything to go by. I don't know if it is first hand or "reporter influenced" but even if part of their collective statements or true, the final 20 minutes on board the Titanic sounds more like a Turkey Shoot.

Amy Stanley wrote a 6-page letter about her survival and a couple of years ago someone posted an extract of the manuscript here. I have saved a copy.


There is nothing Eurocentric about it, but I smell rather "over-touchy" feelings whenever the Syrians on board the Titanic are mentioned. Statements from several survivors from Europe or European heritage have equally been questioned over several threads and so needlessly playing the race card is inappropriate and uncalled for. I am an Asian myself and agree that there is a lot of inconsistency and hyperbole from the Syrian survivors, if a certain book that I made the mistake of wasting money on to buy is anything to go by. I don't know if it is first hand or "reporter influenced" but even if part of their collective statements or true, the final 20 minutes on board the Titanic sounds more like a Turkey Shoot.

Double wow!! As the old saying goes...sticks and stones...... first hand eye-witness accounts by Syrians are questioned???? These are not accounts years, decades, or a century later. These are contemporary reports to the sinking by the survivors. Accounts by these passengers who were not scared to say what happened are the basis of knowing that shots were indeed fired and steerage passengers were killed.
In a Utopian world, scrambling for lifeboats and realizing that life was but a few minutes away from death, there would be no rush to save oneself and that there was no pandemonium in the quest to save one's life. Let's be real. Those Syrian passengers who witnessed what they saw before them, said what they saw.
.. In the years of research I have done, and as an historian, I have learned 'Eurocentrism' is a submliminal force behind believing or not believing. The race card is being played by you when you put it into a context you have decided to bash me with.

 

[Seumas]

Double wow!! As the old saying goes...sticks and stones...... first hand eye-witness accounts by Syrians are questioned???? These are not accounts years, decades, or a century later. These are contemporary reports to the sinking by the survivors. Accounts by these passengers who were not scared to say what happened are the basis of knowing that shots were indeed fired and steerage passengers were killed.
In a Utopian world, scrambling for lifeboats and realizing that life was but a few minutes away from death, there would be no rush to save oneself and that there was no pandemonium in the quest to save one's life. Let's be real. Those Syrian passengers who witnessed what they saw before them, said what they saw.
.. In the years of research I have done, and as an historian, I have learned 'Eurocentrism' is a submliminal force behind believing or not believing. The race card is being played by you when you put it into a context you have decided to bash me with.

Easy now. Arun was most certainly not being nasty, far from it, please read his words again and you will see that.

The accounts by the Syrian survivors are of course worth reading and considering. None of us think otherwise.

However, we do sometimes have to be a bit careful with their accounts because a number of Syrian passengers were pounced upon by unscrupulous newspaper reporters in New York who took advantage of the fact that some of them were not fluent English speakers. As a result stories got altered for the sake of selling newspapers.

The claim that the alleged victims of any shots fired were steerage passengers is also bit of a knee jerk reaction. Indeed, one or two accounts specifically describe one of the Titanic's firemen or trimmers as being the alleged victim. Most accounts don't comment at all on the clothing or appearance of alleged shooting victim(s) except to say it was a male. Men from first or second class could easily have lost their heads too.

Notice that I use the word alleged a lot there. No one has ever conclusively proved that targetted shots were fired. There is evidence both for and against with a huge grey area in between.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

First hand eye-witness accounts by Syrians are questioned???? These are not accounts years, decades, or a century later. These are contemporary reports to the sinking by the survivors. Accounts by these passengers who were not scared to say what happened are the basis of knowing that shots were indeed fired and steerage passengers were killed

Many first hand accounts by anyone, irrespective of ethnicity or nationality can and have been questioned when they simply didn't add up. In case of events around Collapsible C, it just happened that a large number of eventual survivors were Lebanese/Syrians and so questioning what appear to be their first hand statements after decades seems to suggest to an over-touchy mind that it is being done because of their ethnic backgrounds. That is not true at all; if most of the occupants of Collapsible C had been Scandinavians and their descendants had claimed that the survivors had told them about similar shooting incidents, they would have been questioned and criticized just the same.

In the years of research I have done, and as an historian, I have learned 'Eurocentrism' is a submliminal force behind believing or not believing.

Over the years of living and working in both India and Europe, I have learned that people from certain parts of the world perceive "racial discrimination", "Eurocentrism" etc even when such things are not taking place because of a combination of past history and massive chips on the shoulders. That does not help anyone or anything.

However, we do sometimes have to be a bit careful with their accounts because a number of Syrian passengers were pounced upon by unscrupulous newspaper reporters in New York who took advantage of the fact that some of them were not fluent English speakers. As a result stories got altered for the sake of selling newspapers.

Absolutely true. And in case of the Lebanese/Syrian passengers, almost all were Third Class passengers - just like the majority of Scandinavians, Irish etc. A lot of Third Class passengers, including many children, very sadly died in the sinking. Therefore, most of them would have suffered some sort of family or friend loss and would have been justifiably upset and angry at what had happened. The unscrupulous reporters in New York and elsewhere would have quickly realized that a couple of shots were fired during the launching of the very last lifeboats, including Collapsible C. With a number of limited-English speaking, scared and grieving Middle-Eastern passengers on that boat, the reporters would have had the best possble 'source' for their sensationalist nonsense about shooting sprees and deaths. They would have seized upon the situation and had a field day to the extent that I would not be surprised if many Lebanese/Syrian survivors, who actually heard those shots, would have started believing the circulationg stories about many being shot to death. That is usually how rumours originate and spread.

But one thing is for certain. Whatever "hand" the sources of The Dream and Then the Nightmare: The Syrians who Boarded the Titanic were, IMO it is a very badly written sensationalist nonsense that bears no relation to the truth.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The accounts by the Syrian survivors are of course worth reading and considering. None of us think otherwise.

Yes, and in some cases, their actions were quite admirable. I have mentioned in appreciation several times the enterprise shown by Latifah Baqlini in shepherding her entourage safely into a lifeboat (probably Collapsible C) without any male help. In fact, her group and the likes of Fahim al-Zainni, the very first steerage passenger to get off the sinking Titanic, were proof that Third Class passengers' route to the boat deck was not blocked deliberately - it was just that it was long, tortuous and confusing.