Coming alongside or getting underway?

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TitanicNerd

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As far as I am aware, all photos of Titanic leaving Southampton is Titanic.

That's as far as my knowledge goes, at least.
 

Jim Currie

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Hello there TN.

Leaving.jpg

The question here was whether the vessel shown in the above picture was coming alongside the berth or leaving it, not if it was or was not Titanic.

Ioannis told us that Titanic berthed at midnight, if this were so, and I don't have any reason to doubt his information, then the above picture is a faked version of Titanic leaving Southampton. The reason for this is that we know that there were three vessels parked on the other side of the berth from Titanic. They are not visible in the above picture, just a vacant quay-side. They most certainly should have been seen because they were still there when Titanic left for Cherbourg. However, in the following picture, two of them can be plainly seen and we can see Titanic's flags.. dressed overall as she was on Good Friday, April 5.

At the White Star dock in Southampton on Good Friday, April 5, 1912.JPG


Do you see where I'm coming from?

Jim C.

At the White Star dock in Southampton on Good Friday, April 5, 1912.JPG


Leaving.jpg
 
Mar 18, 2008
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1st it was you who came up with the claim of Joe Combs 2nd that it is Olympic. As shown it is Titanic.

2nd the photo is not faked. The Majestic, Philadelphia and St. Louis are hide behind the hull of the Titanic. The vacant quay visible is pier 47 which was empty. (The 3 ships had been there by late March 1912 and were still there 1 week after her sinking. None of them had been moved during that time.)

And by the way the picture showing her dressed in flags in not from April 5th (which is wrongly claimed time and again) but from April 4th.
 
Mar 18, 2008
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And to make it short the photographer from the ship dressed in flags is not the same one as for the other photographs. (I know also several more photographs which had been not published.) But feel free to believe what you want. I have more important things to do then to explain the photographs and which ship was at which pier which you obviously did not know.
 
Mar 18, 2008
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I just noticed that I had posted the wrong photo. Instead of the Odell photo I posted one again from Browne. But that does not matter as his photo is much better and show the crowd at the pier. :)
 

Jim Currie

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Ioannis.

You declare me to be wrong when I say that a picture was not taken on departure day and that Mr. Joe Combs is mistaken about the same photograph.

Will you honestly re-consider your opinion one last time and carefully examine the following sequence of photographs?

Thisfirst one is of Titanic at Southampton on April 4, 1912.
At the White Star dock in Southampton on Good Friday, April 5, 1912.JPG
The second one is of Titanic still fully moored alongside.
Titanic 1.jpg
The third is of passengers boarding Titanic.
Pasengers board at Southampton.jpg
The fourth, the one you an almost everyone thinks is Titanic leaving Southampton
Leaving.jpg
The last one is minutes after Titanic has cst-off her moorings and is underway.
By By.jpg

In picture 1, we see that Titanic is tucked-up into berth 44 and dressed overall. Across her bow, we can see the two funnels of Majestic across Titanic's bow and the mooring lines of the vessels moored outside Majestic.

In picture 2, Titanic is still moored as before and the stern of the SS Majestic, her mooring lines and those of the other two vessels moored alongside her can be seen at a broad angle across her bow. The topmasts of these vessels above Titanic's forecastle deck.

In picture 3, we can see that the Titanic is still tucked-up into berth 44, that the passengers are using the mobile gangway and the dock cranes are behind it.

In picture 4, the one alleged to depict the moment before the last line is let go, we can see well beyond Titanic's off-side and almost down to the north east corner of the White Star Dock but now, there are no vessels in sight except for the tugs. We also see that the passenger gangway seen in the previous picture has gone and is now behind the dock crane and there are no passenger-well-wishers in sight.

In Picture 5, which must have been taken shortly after picture 4, we now see Titanic underway and clear of her berth. Now the berth is full of men and women well-wishers and the passenger mobile gangway is once again in front of the dock cranes.

To summarise:

In the first two pictures, Titanic is tucked well into her berth and the evidence of vessels parked opposite her in The White Star Dock is very clear. The second picture must have been taken close to where the man is sitting in picture 4.
In the third picture, there is no sign of these vessels despite the fact that everyone knows they were there during Titanic's entire stay at Southampton. If their sterns and moorings were visible at a broad angle to Titanic's bow, in pictures 1 & 2 when she was tucked well into her berth, then they would most certainly have been visible in picture three. Because if Majestic's funnels could be seen across Titanic bow when the latter was tucked into her berth then Majestic must have been moored in the middle of the dock opposite Titanic. This would make sense since Titanic's stern tugs would need room to manoeuvre at the head of the dock during berthing and unberthing operations. Also in picture 4, there are obstacles across the crane and gangway rails and the rail inspection boards have been removed. There are no passenger well-wishers in sight and the No.44 Berth passenger mobile gangway is behind the dock cranes.
In picture 4, the last one, the passenger mobile gangways for berths 43 and 44 are between the dock cranes. How was that possible?

Now do you agree there is something wrong with picture 3?

Jim C.

Titanic 1.jpg


Leaving.jpg


At the White Star dock in Southampton on Good Friday, April 5, 1912.JPG


Pasengers board at Southampton.jpg


By By.jpg
 

Jim Currie

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Hello there TN.

I am more interested in finding out if I am or am not the only person who sees the inconsistencies in that series of photographs. My main concern is that there is no obvious explanation as to why the last two photographs in the series to not chronologically or sequentially match each other. If you and others who might have read that post agree or disagree then I'd be delighted to hear other opinions based on a careful examination of the evidence. I suspect that the silence is due to the fact that if I'm right and it becomes public then there's a lot of folks out there who will be left with egg on their faces.

Here's a little exercise you and others might like to try out and tell me if it's just me and my old computer that are loosing the place.

Log-on to ww.nmni.com/titanic/Loss/Leaving-Southampton/Leaving-Southampton-4.aspx - 50k. You will find 6 views of Titanic at Southampton. All but the last view has a zoom facility but the facility is 'fixed', i.e. you cannot really 'zoom' in the proper sense of the word. Strangely enough, although picture "Leaving Southampton 1" has this function, it does not work,, you can't get any closer to the target. Perhaps just a coincidence? However it does work on the same photograph on this site, but despite this, and the fact that my final photograph shows that Titanic left in brilliant sunshine, a little imagination is needed to read the ship's name clearly- even at full zoom although you can almost read the draft marks on the bow. Maybe it's just my suspicious mind? If you look closely just beyond the tugs on Titanic's starboard bow, you will see the two raked masts close together and the associated rigging stays of a smallish vessel... certainly not Majestic, St. Louis, or Philadelphia.

Jim C.
 
Mar 18, 2008
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Now do you agree there is something wrong with picture 3?
NO!!!!


And only to show how poor your analysis is I have add this 2 pictures. So your gangway in front and then behind the cranes (there were 2 gangways and 4 cranes, 2 cranes forward and 2 aft for berth 44) made no sense! I sure already told you but you obviously only believe what you want! Oh by the way, berth 43 had NO gangway by that time and the logbooks of the Southampton tugs show no movement of any other ship in the Ocean Dock between April 4 and 10 only Titanic arriving and leaving.

As I already said, you can place whatever ship you want at whatever berth you like! However do with the pictures what you want, I do not care any longer!

Crowd on Southampton Dock 1.jpg


Second Class Boarding at Southampton.1.jpg
 

Jim Currie

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Ioannis, think carefully about your photograph interpretation skills. Allow me to remind you of the basics.

In the original plans for Berths 43 and 44, there was a set of rail tracks laid the full length of both berths. Six(6) items were to be located on these tracks. These consisted of 4 mobile cranes and 2 mobile, high level passenger gangways. They were located in such a way that the passenger facilities were sited between the cranes. There were no cranes located on the rails between the passenger facilities. When both berths were empty, all 6 items were parked at the river end of shed 44.

Laid-up vessels 2050.jpg

In the 'fairwell' picture supplied by you, Titanic has already left Berth 44 and we see the facilities for berth 43 parked as required. The picture taken of passengers boarding using the berth 44 high level gangway could only have been was taken from the parked berth 43 high level gangway. If that gangway was in place when Titanic left her berth, why do we see a crane instead of a high level gangway in the picture you claim is of Titanic leaving? I have inscribed the position of Titanic's 'B' deck in the following photograph together with the approximate position of her bow when moored to the berth and embarking passengers

By By.jpg

I remind you of what you claim is the same as the above picture:

Leaving.jpg

That is a crane above the Dock Master's head, a high level passenger embarkation facility as it most certainly should be if we are discussing photographs taken five or ten minutes apart. Iremond you of how these facilities were situated at the time passengers were using them to board Titanic.

Pasengers board at Southampton.jpg

You will note that the passenger facility above must have been the one allocated to berth 44 since we can clearly see the south end of berth 45 at Titanic's stern.

As I say, you need to upgrade your skills a bit.;)

Jim C.

Laid-up vessels 2050.jpg


By By.jpg


Leaving.jpg


Pasengers board at Southampton.jpg
 
Mar 18, 2008
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As I say, you need to upgrade your skills a bit.;)
FINAL POST as I have enough of your usual nonsense you are always posting. I don't know what is the problem with you, possibly to much time, that every subject ends in the same way.
As I said you do not know 90% of the other images and also not the situation of the docks of Southampton in April 1912 and also seemed to missed every other source. That is then your problem!

And by the way your drawings are the ones which are wrong!

If it makes you happy that the pictures are faked and it is Olympic or Belfast or ship turning around and that Joe Combs 2nd knows the ships and photos well or anything else, so be it! I am not dealing with that any longer I have wasted too much time!

Leaving2.jpg


Laid-up vessels 1.jpg


By By2.jpg


Boarding at Southampton..jpg
 

Mark Baber

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FINAL POST as I have enough of your usual nonsense you are always posting. I don't know what is the problem with you, possibly to much time, that every subject ends in the same way.
That's enough. With this comment the discussion in this thread has gone out of bounds and the thread is now closed.
 
Nov 13, 2014
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So I found this old thread where the following picture of Titanic leaving Southampton was heavily discussed.
titanic_in_southampton-jpg.jpg

From saying it was the Olympic, possibility that the ship was arriving instead of leaving, Belfast instead of Southampton, et cetera. The discussion got so heated the thread was closed by a moderator.

But now, I can say with 100%-ish certainty that it is just was it was always claimed: Titanic leaving Southampton. The proof? A very HQ version of the exact same image:
titanic.jpg

The quality is just high enough to allow one to actually read the name on the hull: TITANIC.

And the question whether this was taken when Titanic was arriving at Southampton? According to the story, Titanic arrived at around Midnight. Lowe said somewhere in the Inquiries that they docked immediately at pier 44, but I haven't checked the transcripts yet.

Final note: the ship's decks are full of people. Full of passengers. This is obviously the Titanic (again, you can read the name on the image itself), and all of her passengers boarded at Southampton, Cherbourg and Queenstown.

Moderator's note: This message, originally a separate thread, has been moved to the "old thread" referred to. MAB
 
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