Comparison of the Three PAs


In response to Kyle's post from yesterday...the word "epic" doesn't refer to the running time...it refers to the scope and grandeur of the story.

Gone with the Wind is an epic because of it's breadth of story and production. West Side Story is not because it has a simple story with a few characters.

See?
 
Feb 4, 2007
1,646
3
108
40
Denver, Colorado, United States
Huumm... while I guess West Side Story is not technically an "epic film", it certainly does contain elements of that genre ~ particularly it's forward use of complex musical scoring (far more complex than most "musicals" or even other true "epic films"), exceptionally emotional dramatic themes, and its pervading center of conflict.

Perhaps, for the purposes of the discussion in Kyle's post, we can replace the word "epic" with "blockbuster" or "popular", and therefore not run into issues with the correct usage of the term "epic film".
happy.gif


And yes, I, too, enjoy the intermissions these films have. What a marvelous opportunity to skip out and relieve oneself, powder one's nose, and then discuss the events of the film thus far with others!
 
K

Kyle Johnstone

Guest
No Jason, don't replace a thing.
But thanks anyway... ;)

Who said "epic" refers to running time?

Besides, "blockbuster" and "popular" don't always, or, quite often don't, translate into "quality"...

West Side Story is indeed "epic" in the "scope and grandeur" of it's production values.

It is a superb piece of virtuoso filmmaking; it's score by Leonard Bernstein, song lyrics that we all know (whether you love them is another story, but you DO know them) the direction, cinematography, choreography, art direction...

Containing the definition of "epic" to the story is over-simplifying.

Often, almost always, an epic film, by any definition of the term, is quite long in running time, I was simply using it as an example, NOT a definition.

I stand by what I said.

See?

Now, time for the lecture on "virtuoso"
 

Jim Kalafus

Member
Dec 3, 2000
6,114
15
198
Howdy, Kyle: Here is a great take on "Epic," courtesy of Roger Ebert:


"The word epic in recent years has become synonymous with big budget B picture. What you realize watching Lawrence of Arabia is that the word epic refers not to the cost or the elaborate production, but to the size of the ideas and vision. Werner Herzog's 'Aguirre: The Wrath of God' didn't cost as much as the catering in 'Pearl Harbor,' but it is an epic, and 'Pearl Harbor' is not."

"Epic" is a state of mind
happy.gif
 
May 27, 2007
3,917
3
0
quote:

"Epic" is a state of mind
happy.gif
Well then I'm a living Epic. If they made a movie about my life it would be an Epic. I have an Epic sized ego.
wink.gif
That's the reason I had to put my to cents in on the word Epic.​
 
Feb 4, 2007
1,646
3
108
40
Denver, Colorado, United States
quote:

"blockbuster" and "popular" don't always, or, quite often don't, translate into "quality"...
That statement is important enough to repeat twice.
thumbup.gif


One other plug in favor of canonizing West Side Story as an "epic":

Like the true "epic" works of Richard Wagner, West Side Story contains all elements of a Gesamtkunstwerk or "total art work". It encompasses high-art forms of sound, music, spoken word, poetry, dance, visual effects, and drama all combined as a complete unit of art. While a love story, the plot does take us on a journey (a requirement for "epic" terminology) -not a journey on a ship, car, train, or tornado- but on an internal journey through the heart and mind.

No one questions whether or not Wagner's works are epics because they are, and Bernstein's work being profoundly similar to Wagner's, plus the additional fact that it does convey its audience on a journey, makes it is safe to apply the term "epic" to West Side Story as well.

Regardless, Jim's right. "Epic" is a state of mind.
mad.gif
 
Feb 4, 2007
1,646
3
108
40
Denver, Colorado, United States
Sorry Jeremy, I don't mean to pick on or mock you. I just wanted to point out, as others here have as well, that while "epic film" has an applied technical definition, that definition does not cover all epic films.
happy.gif
This is a case of thinking outside the box.
 

Jim Kalafus

Member
Dec 3, 2000
6,114
15
198
>Jim's right.

Second nature to me
happy.gif


Getting back to Poseidon, I must ALSO add a defensive, shouted, "The Purser's Right!" in honor of everyone's favorite soon to be doomed bit player~ the attractive matron who rushes to The Purser's aid after Scott bellows "It is true, you pompous ass!"

BTW- the revelation that Scott had spent the voyage...uhhh...Gettin' Real with the frowsy, bony, spinster Miss Kinsale was another plot twist best omitted from the movie. The book implies that Scott got involved with something illegal in NY, and Rogo was 'tailing' him and not really on vacation at all. Classic dialogue when Linda goes for Scott's zipper in the dark and gets slapped down:

"Whaddya want me to do?"
"Ack like a man. A guy makes a play for your wife an' you just stand there?"
"A guy grabs at you and HE screams? Whaddya got, a set of teeth in there?"
"You b--d"
"I got him pegged. He's a panzola. Those rah-rah boys are all the same. But at least that Muller- he ain't a flit. You heard him puttin' it to that kid" (Meaning Nonnie)

So, when Miss Kinsale reveals that she and Scott have been just as torrid as Mr. Martin and Wilma Lewis, Rogo is left suspecting that maybe Linda and Scott may have...uh...discussed theology behind his back for the entire voyage.

>I would have assumed Red Button's character played for the other team.

Whichever team, I pegged him as bench warmer, or perhaps waterboy or spitbucket carrier. But, no...as the book reveals, Mrs Lewis laid a black widow~like trap. Turned on by his grey drabness and sour demeanor, she invited him to a stateroom party and when he arrived it was to discover that there were no other guests. THEN, she pulled the beret from her bouffant, which cascaded over her shoulders turning her into a 'moist eyed, willing, woman' (Paul Gallico's words) and the trap sprang shut. NOW, I know that in real life the James Martins of the world would pick up the beret and say "You dropped this" as he handed it back to her and turned on "Laugh In." And I know, also, that in real life beautiful, rich, stereotypical nymphomanics tend to go after the pool boy or someone at the health club and not withered 55 year olds who've not had sex in 15 years...but for the book to work one must forget these truths and suspend all disbelief. Mr. Gallico lost me he revealed that Wilma was essentially set on establishing Mr. Martin as her "Kept Boy" in Chicago.
 

Jim Kalafus

Member
Dec 3, 2000
6,114
15
198
>What a way for the kid to go, though.

Yup...one minute blissfully defecating behind some pipes, the next minute a horde of panicked crewmen bearing down on him like enraged Black Angus. There is a metaphor in that, somewhere.


>The thing about children dying in movies, apparently there was, and still is to some degree, a strict rule against that.

Yup...children and animals. Not only does Mike Lookinland survive (only to be paralyzed, as an adult, in a race car accident in the MTV film The Brady 500 which was never shown but instead incorporated into the disastrous Bradys TV series, if I remember correctly) but so too does "Elke," Lisolette's cat, rescued by OJ Simpson himelf and handed over to the sodden Fred Astaire, as a consolation prize of sorts, after Lisolette falls out of the scenic elevator and takes out a row of parked cars on Powell Street. Some other great children in disaster movies:

Janice the little Girl Kidney patient (Airport 1975) SURVIVES

Statitics Quoting Son of George Kennedy (Airport 1975) SURVIVES

"Joey" the little boy with food poisoning consoled by creepy Senor Wences impersonator (Zero Hour) SURVIVES

"Joey" the little boy with food poisoning, who may have been in a Turkish prison. (Airplane) SURVIVES

"Wise Beyond His Years Little Boy With Coffee" (Airplane) SURVIVES

"Wise Beyond Her Years Little Girl Who Takes her Coffee Black, Like Her Men" (Airplane) SURVIVES

Sleeping Little Boy in Deflated Lifejacket in Front Of Whom The Stewardeess Kneels To Inflate Said, Inspiring the Autopilot Sequence in Airplane (The High and the Mighty) SURVIVES

Danny Bonaduce as "Millard" (Murder on Flight 502) SURVIVES

Idiot Kid Who Hides Under Garbage Can To Avenge Himself Against The Killer Bees that Killed His Entire Family Only To Set The Swarm Loose, Killing His Entire School, His Entire Town (post train wreck) And The Entire Western Hemisphere (Post Nuclear Power Plant Explosion) (The Swarm) DOES NOT SURVIVE

Alex Kintner, the raft-riding little boy who is beginning to Prune (Jaws) DOES NOT SURVIVE

Eddie the horny teenager whose dates with hot Tina Wilcox keep being interrrupted by that damned shark (Jaws 2) DOES NOT SURVIVE

Tina Wilcox: SURVIVES

Donna Wilkes of Angel Fame Who Scream Until You Want to Slap Her (Jaws 2) SURVIVES

Sean Brody the Annoying Brat Who DESERVES To Get Eaten For Ruining His Geek Brother's Only Date For the Summer of 1978 By Tagging Along, and Who Also Deserves To Get Eaten For The Adam Rich Hairstyle He Wears (Jaws 2) SURVIVES, only to be eaten by another shark on Christmas Eve in Jaws 4.

Mike Brody: Survives sharks in Jaws. Jaws 2, Jaws 3-D, Jaws 4.

Corey The Rider Rider (Earthquake) SURVIVES

Helen Hunt the teenager who when warned "There is a maniac on the loose, don't go on the rollercoster" immediately goes on the rollercoaster (Rollercoaster) SURVIVES

Faux-Doehner Children (Hindenburg) ALL SURVIVE- unlike in real life.

Zombie Son of Rich Family (A Night To Remember) SURVIVES

Daughters who speak in unison like the creepy twins on the Simpsons (A Night to Remember) SURVIVE

"We'll Find Mummy, We'll Soon Find Her" Kid (A Night to Remember) DOES NOT SURVIVE

Norman aka "Love Child Love Child Never Quite As Good" (Titanic) DOES NOT SURVIVE

Apple Cheeked Irish Tots (The Other Titanic) DO NOT SURVIVE

Cal's "Collapsible A Child" (The Other Titanic) DOES NOT SURVIVE

Jill The Screamer (The Last Voyage) SURVIVES

Danny Apparent Even at That Age Pintauro (Cujo) SURVIVES- unlike in the book.

Gage Creed (Pet Sematary) DOES NOT INITIALLY SURVIVE BUT IS REANIMATED

The Children of Camp Despair (Piranha) MOSTLY DO NOT SURVIVE

The Abducted Girl in Wheels of Terror: DOES NOT SURVIVE
The OTHER Abducted Girl in Wheels of Terror who is The Central Character's daughter: SURVIVES.

Teenager in "X-Rated" T-shirt (Diary of a Teenage Hitch Hiker) DOES NOT SURVIVE

Charlene Tilton As The Serial Hitchhiker Who Will Not Listen to Reason Despite The Fact That All Her Hitch Hikin' Friends Are Being Raped and/or Murdered By The Same Serial Killer (Diary of a Teenage Hitch Hiker): SURVIVES

Lindsay The TV Watcher (Halloween) SURVIVES

Irritating Little Wimp Whose Pumpkin Gets Smashed By Bullies And Who Still Believes In "The Boogie Man" At Too Great An Age (Halloween) SURVIVES.

From which we can determine that as a screen child, you have a 100% guarantee of surviving a burning building or endangered airplane or non-Titanic ship. Your chances of surviving a serial killer are fair to good, although at least ONE child has to be bumped off to indicate that the Serial Killer is One Heartless Hombre. Your chances of surviving a natural disaster seem good, although the statistics are a BIT skewed since the only natural disaster flick I could recall was earthquake, and the only child I could recall in it was Corey. A child in a film about the Titanic's chances of surviving are about as good as those of the children actually ABOARD the Titanic- not very good, although on the cinematic Hindenburg they are about 1/3 better than in real life. And, when it comes to Killer Fish Films, kids are fair game. Why? I have no idea....
 
Jun 12, 2004
2,131
0
106
Yeah, I remember most of these!

The stats reflect a percentage less than 100 in favor of survival and so the rule is not a steadfast one, but, as we can see, there's a pattern going on.

Other examples are:

* The Jack kids (The Titanic,1996). DOES NOT SURVIVE
* "The future sergeants" - teenagers (Rise of the Machines, 200?) DOES NOT SURVIVE
* The president's daughter (Airforce One) SURVIVES
* Alex the son (The Mummy Returns) SURVIVES
* Claudia the young vampiress (Interview with the Vampire, 1994/5) DOES NOT SURVIVE
* Mathilda (The Professional) SURVIVES
* Simon, the autistic boy (Mercury Rising) SURVIVES

Some of these are unusual cases, so they are likely exceptional as well.

By the way, believe it or not, in one of the deleted scenes for Cameron's film (I don't remember which one), Cal's "A" girl was seen aboard the Carpathia, so she apparently was intended to survive. Presumably, Cameron had a change of heart or felt it wasn't necessary to acknowledge. I do remember seeing it somewhere.

One interesting side note: Cora died, and Cameron was sensitive enough to remove that scene because he felt that it was too much. Interestingly enough, he was cautious about this but not about the Murdoch suicide. Neither scene was necessary.
 

Eric Longo

Member
Aug 13, 2004
888
0
86
Hi Jim,

Don't forget Veronica Cartwright in The Birds - SURVIVES.
Or Janina Faye in The Day of the Triffids - SURVIVES.
While not a disaster flick, another exception would be Susan Swift in Audrey Rose - DOES NOT SURVIVE.

Best,
Eric
 
Dec 2, 2000
58,619
423
283
Easley South Carolina
>>Neither scene was necessary.<<

I suppose it's splitting hairs, but if a cinimatographer wanted to present the alleged officer's suicide in a fashion that was faithful to the historical record, all he need do is have a gunshot ring out in the confusion. This would be followed by the nominal hero of the story looking back towards the source and seeing a too still body in an officers uniform lying on the deck.

Since the real world witnesses were apparantly confused about who the victim was, there's no need to be specific about his identity.
 
May 27, 2007
3,917
3
0
quote:

Cal's "Collapsible A Child" (The Other Titanic) DOES NOT SURVIVE
I saw her in the movie were old Rose is saying all they had to do was wait when talking about the people in the Lifeboats. The scene is very dark but shows her(the Child) being comforted for a split second by another passenger and then shows Cal by himself accepting a flask from another man who survived.​
 

John Clifford

Member
Mar 30, 1997
1,691
0
166
57
We also have to remember the "pull at the heart-strings" dialogues, for the children in dangerous situations.
If the child or animal has to die, we need the emotional moments.

Some examples:
1. "When Time Ran Out", i.e. "Earth's Final Fury": that was one of Irwin Allen's last disaster films, this time with everyone on a South Seas island when the volcano erupts. Shelley Winters was in that film, too, but survives, this time, unlike Veronica Hamel, Pat Morita, and the lady in the red jumper suit. However, that was also not the case for the father of the two Asian kids, as the kids see him plunge off a cliff; we then had to see them carried, "oh so carefuly" accross the partially destroyed wooden bridge, by Burgess Meredith and Paul Newman;
2. Carlena Gower in "The Towering Inferno", when she says, to Susan Blakely "I won't be afraid if you won't be afraid" (right after Jennifer Jones falls out of the elevator);
3. The child crying out for dad in Cameron's TITANIC, the prelude to him and dad being swept away in the waters;
4. The child by himself in A NIGHT TO REMEMBER, and being with the crewman before the ship plunges; and
5. The german shepherd in HALLOWEEN; we knew the Michael Meyers character would have to kill it, so we only see the dangling rear legs.

I also remember that in WHEN A STRANGER CALLS, the Mendrokiss children are never seen, since they had to be killed off; the scene cuts to the parents seeing the policemen bringing down the body bags.
 

Jim Kalafus

Member
Dec 3, 2000
6,114
15
198
Don't Go To Sleep: This film was a veritable slaughter of the innocents. The chipmonk-like little boy from Poltergeist, and his gremlin like little sister, tie the shoes of their prissy Melissa Sue Anderson clone older sister together. Tipsy dad then wrecks the car and "Prissy" cannot run to safety like everyone else and burns to death after rhe car explodes. Mom (Valerie Harper), dad, Chipmonk Boy, Gremlina, and horrifically old granny (Ruth I Hate Her Gordon) move to rambling country home to begin afresh. But "Prissy" rises from the grave and convinces Gremlina to help her kill off the entire family. First they kill Ruth Gordon by placing Chipmonk's iguana between her legs and inside her nightgown as she sleeps, so it crawls up and...and...and...Ruth has a fatal heart attack as, I am sure, does the iguana. Next to go is Chipmonk Boy. Gremlina, at the direction of Dead Older Sis, tosses the Frisbee, on purpose, on to the steeply pitched roof directly in front of a dormer with windows that swing outward French Door style. As he gingerly perches on the edge iof the roof, just outside the dormer, SOMEONE gets a good running start and bumper cars him right off the roof. And, I SWEAR TO GOD, there is a quick cut to the kitchen where Valerie Harper drops a watermelon, which splatters. Mourning drunken daddy is killed by a radio thrown into his bathtub, leaving only Valerie Harper for Gremlina and the Vengeful Dead Sister to kill. She escapes, of course (Gremlina tries to use a pizza cutter, among other weapons) and the film quasi-ends in the mental hospital, where Gremlina is babbling and ranting in the style of TV Movie Paranoid Schizophrenic Multiple Personalities. So, it wasn't a ghost story after all! Yes, you see the predictable trick ending, which is that Val Harper goers home alone, and discovers that this time Vengeful Dead Sister HAS risen from the grave. The toll:

2 kids dead.
1 loveable crusty grandma dead.
1 iguana traumatized beyond belief by what he experienced.
1 drunken whiny dad dead.
1 totally resistable child actress in psycho ward.
1 widowed, motherless, mom with two dead kids and a third in the Ted Bundy Suite, being chased around her bedroom by the angry spirit of her dead daughter who looks like Mary from Little House.

Burnt Offerings: Run down mansion repairs itself each time someone dies. First it drains full-of-life Aunt Elizabeth (Bette Davis)before frightening her to death. THEN it causes Oliver Reed to jump out a third floor window just-as-he-is-on-the-brink-of-fleeing-in-terror, and drops a chimney on Lee H. Montgomery (a truly unappealng child actor). After which the house treats itelf to a makeover worthy of Ty Pennington and becomes the showplace it ought to have been all along.

Poseidon Adventure: The OTHER child aboard the ship~ seen only at the church service~ dies.

>"When Time Ran Out",

John, you reminded me of another Irwin Allen theme- stay clear of faux-Polynesian totems! As you no doubt recall, one topples over in Towering Inferno crushing the actor who played Julio the Mailman on Sanford and Son....who I think played Julio The Bartender in Towering... THEN in When Time Ran Out, a number of hapless extras die under a toppling Totem as well.

Burgess Meredith: Not for the faint hearted...who here remembers the scene in Such Good Friends(1971)in which he dances the Frug entirely nude except for a book on a chain that blocks...well...you get the picture...in a film that proves that Skidoo was not the worst Preminger production.
 

Jim Kalafus

Member
Dec 3, 2000
6,114
15
198
STELLA AUTOGRAPH: The only other photo currently hanging in the dining room, Christina Applegate as Kelly Bundy, perfectly sets off Stella as Linda and adds a cryptic touch to the decor. In Texas I have a minimalist guest bedroom, done all in white furnished with only an antique iron framed bed and an autographed photo of Nancy Reagan, inscribed for me in person, June 1982. Never fails to raise eyebrows.
happy.gif

122598.jpg
 
May 27, 2007
3,917
3
0
Christina Applegate all luscious looking. My adolescence flies before my eyes. Lucky you 'James'.
wink.gif
So is she as hot in person.
 

Eric Longo

Member
Aug 13, 2004
888
0
86
Hi Jim, Hi George,

Nice autographs Jim! When I can make some scans I'll post some from my collection - in the Ballyhoo thread. Garland, Swanson, Davis, Crawford, Bankhead, etc. and etc...all vintage signed stills or candids. I love the stuff!

Best,
Eric
 

Jim Kalafus

Member
Dec 3, 2000
6,114
15
198
I'd FAR rather see Kelly Bundy on The Poseidon than either Susan or Nonnie.

Did you ever play "Geography"- the stupid and easy to ruin car game that Al Bundy suggests as an alternative to killing his family by plowing their car into a bus on their Labor Day car trip which they spend caught in traffic for two days within sight of their house?

AL: Well, I was gonna say: "let's play Geography". You know, I'll name a state or a
country, and the next person names one that begins with the letter the last one ended with. Sound good?

PEG: Sounds great.

BUD: [with pretend excitement] Oh man, let's play.

KELLY: You start, Daddy.

AL: Okay. Alaska. "A". Peg...

PEG: Asia. Bud: "A".

BUD: Africa. Kel: "A".

Kelly thinks for a long time. Al thrashes about in his seat with frustration.

PEG: Honey, she's really trying!

AL: I know, I know. [brightening up] Hey, we need some music! That will get us out of this! How about some good old American road music?

Al turns the radio on and we hear some foreign song playing. Al changes the station and we hear
a song in Spanish. Al looks despaired and buries his head in the wheel. Peg turns the radio off.

PEG: Al?

AL: [nearly whispering] What?

PEG: Honey, I have to go to the bathroom. But don't you worry about it, I'm just gonna run back to the house, and I'll be right back.

Peg leaves. Kelly finally thinks of a word for the Geography game.

KELLY: Alabammer. Daddy: "R".

Sad thing is, I've BEEN on trips where this game has been suggested. And I enjoy inserting the "A" paradox into the game, which is that there are almost no places begining with "A" that don't also end with it. And, if some wiseaple suggests Arkansas or Azerbaijan, one can always throw the game back into the endless loop by saying "Saratoga. George:A" or "Nebraska. Eric: A"
 

Similar threads