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> [Hi Mike interesting in your text you used the same word"bait" Take it they did.
A few questions
Did the Admiralty know submarines were active on Turners route?
Did they refuse his request after they notified him when he asked to change course around the North of Ireland?
Did they not tell him he would be escorted by a cruiser?
Was the Cruiser not already to go steam up and lines singled up?
Did the Cruiser not recieve order at the last minute to stay in port?
Was the First Sea Lord and the U.S Secretary of the Navy close friends?
Did England not want America to take her side?
Why was the original manifest not found until after a president of the U.S. died and it was found in his private library at home?
Why were empty cheese containers listed as full on the working manifest and consigned to a Royal Navy Base in England?
Where were they stowed?
Why would the First Sea Lord of a few years ago say the Luistania is still sa sticky can of worms with them?
Do you really believe ONE world war one type torpedeo could sink an Ocean Liner in 18 minutes with out some other source of internal explosion and not the coal dust or steam bit?
And why did some years ago BB (Before Ballard)did 20/20 only complete 2 parts of their 3 part series of dives with Hugh Downs of 20/20 on board to the the Lusitania have to leave the site when they were only one bulkhead away from proving whether or not the guns to be quickly installed on deck as an Armed Merchant Cruiser having already found the installed ammunition hoists and after making that public and showing the video on the air recieve a telex from the British Gov't and have to leave the site and never complete the series
Hmmmmmmmmmmm !!!! ]
>>Did the Admiralty know submarines were active on Turners route?<< They did. REALLY.

>>Do you really believe ONE world war one type torpedo could sink an Ocean Liner in 18 minutes with out some other source of internal explosion and not the coal dust or steam bit?<< When bad luck and chance come together, maybe. The 1 torpedo might have hit the wrong place at the wrong time.

>>And why did some years ago BB (Before Ballard)did 20/20 only complete 2 parts of their 3 part series of dives with Hugh Downs of 20/20 on board to the the Lusitania have to leave the site when they were only one bulkhead away from proving whether or not the guns to be quickly installed on deck as an Armed Merchant Cruiser having already found the installed ammunition hoists and after making that public and showing the video on the air recieve a telex from the British Gov't and have to leave the site and never complete the series<<

Something's up
Sorry Jon, there's really no "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" about it. That submarines were active was a secret to nobody, and the U-20 for example had been fairly active in the area. That no warship escort was provided hardly qualifies as any smoking gun as ASW technology was extremely primitive. A warship could deal with a surfaced submarine, but few had the means to deal with one that was submerged, and no way to detect where they were until the first torpedo exploded.

It helps to know that very few warships of the time could keep pace with the Lusitania and such as there were tended to be needed elsewhere.

The list of 'who knows who, who wants what' and allusions to secrets, manifests and motives is hardly compelling. These people could want any number of things and have any number of objectives, but for all of that, they simply could not control any number of random factors that were in play to make some neferious plan work. It's also a nice piece of historical misdirection which ignors the fact that the Lusitania was a perfectly legitimate target of war. She flew the flag of a belligerant, was designed for rapid conversion to an armed auxilary cruiser, was subsidized by the British Government for just that reason, and had potential as a transport as well. Were I a sub driver, I would have taken the ship out myself for those reasons alone.

And yes, I do believe a single torpedo could take out the ship for the simple reason that this was exactly what happened. The secondary explosion that everyone crows about was not the sort of massive bang one would assocciate with ammunition being cooked off and could not have happened save as a consequence of the first in any event. From the sort of deep rumbling sound actually described, it sounds to me like some steamlines and boilers were ruptured.
The suggestion here is that Winston Churchill et al deliberately set up Lusitania as a target hoping she'd be torpedoed, to get America into the war? Is that it? I know governments can get up to some fairly murky things, but this seems a really fantastic suggestion. If WC said it would be "a lot of live bait", he was probably responding to a "what if" scenario by stating the only positive thing he could see resulting from such a catastrophe. He had a rather dark sense of humour sometimes, and it wouldn't have been unusual for him to say something like that. As for the Govt telling 20/20 to leave the site, well, they probably didn't want people concluding that guns = conspiracy, even though as MS said she'd been designed and subsidised for wartime conversion, a perfectly well known fact.

Paul Rogers

If the conspiracy theorists are correct, then IMHO the plan didn't work out very well.

Lusitania sunk: May 1915
America entered WW1: April 1917

Hardly an efficient demonstration of Cause and Effect! Surely there must have been a better way?
The best defense against submarine attack was high speed and following non-periodic zig-zag course headings. The submarine skipper, on the other hand, after turning onto the "normal" course line (perpendicular path) from the initial bearing, would try to plot the baseline course of the target by tracking the target vessel through several zigs. It will then maneuver, if at all possible, to get on the base course. Even if successful to that point, there is a bit of luck involved in having the target ship take the right zig at the right time that will put her in a path at the right distance for a successful attack, especially if it is traveling at high speed.

If you want to set yourself up as a target for a successful submerged submarine attack, slow down and go straight. One way to do that is be escorted by a relatively slow warship, giving those on the escorted vessel a false sense of security, while maximizing target vulnerability to attack. If this were a conspiracy to get the US involved, the Admiralty surely came up with a very poor plan for getting it to work.
> [Sorry Mike the Cruiser was at Queenstown and assigned to go out and escort the Lusitania in that's why she had steam up and all lines "Singled Up" that morning.

"To continue the conspiracy theory when winston Churchill came back to power in the early 1950's, the Admiralty commissioned several dives in this area.The Royal Navy salvage vessel Reclaim was seen over the wreck. The theory goes that the Admiralty either removed or destroyed evidence that might have been embarassing to Winston Churchill or the Admiralty or the British Government. The Admiralty denies that scenario, but after Oceaneering's survey vessel anchored over the wreck in August 1992 something happened to make the conspiracy theory even more credible. The company's British office recieved a Telex, sent on behalf of the British Ministry of Defense, advising the company to stop it's operations. The Telex said in part, " It would be imprudent not to point the obvious but real danger inherent if explosives did happen to be present. In that unlikely event you are strongly advised to stop operations and consider your position most carefully."The Telex added, "The Ministry does not know of any evidence whatsoever that might substantiate rumours of other explosives." It was the sort of warning that adds to rather than detracts from the suspicion that the British government has something to hide. And the warning didn't work, this weekend Oceaneering is launching a second more thorough operation, one that will make a complete public search of the ship that helped get America into World War I. They hope that the next operation will solve the mystery of the Lusitania once and for all. So still more evidence may be coming up out of the depths." 20/20 Transcript 02 Sept 1992
NOTE the next program never aired as Oceaneering did end up leaving the site after recieving a stronger Telex from the British and according to Richard Simmons co-producer 20/20 at that time in a tel/con he said the second Telex said a Navy ship would be sent to escort them off the site if they did not vacate the area. It seems the next filming was going to be beyoned the bulkhead where the ammunition hoists were found and beyond that bulkhead that's where the deck gins would have been stowed for rapid installation. BUT! !so if anyone is a friend of Hugh Downs best talk to him as he was out there and knows the whole poop. As far as the time from attack to America entering the war Woodrow Wilson President at the time was reluctant to enter the war as he wanted us to stay netural as long as possible and sell arms to anyone. Like a football game isn't won in the first quarter Washington wanted to stretch out the game. But an ally to Great Britain and supporter who eventually got the President to enter on the side of the British was the friend of their First Sea Lord our own Secretary of the Navy.
Peanut Butter anyone]
Mike is right The Lusitania was converted for deck guns and ammunition "hoists" which were filmed and shown on the 20/20 program. So therefor even if the guns were not mounted (but could be in minutes) and visible she was an Armed Merchant Cruiser in disguise flying a as Mike says a belligerent flag carrying Civilian passengers (The Live Bait?) etc. She was a legitimate target....

Exactly which of the Conspiracy Theories do you support? Simpson, Beesly, Butler? Or do you have a theory of your own?

as for ammunition exploding. in order for the shells on board to explode, they would have to take a direct hit, and even than the damage they would do is somewhat questionable. and theres no proof that guncotton was on board. the only high explosive material known to be on board was Aluminum Powder, though no one made much fuss about it being explosive until O'Sullivan wrote his book.

As for guns. it is possible that if guns were on board that they collapsed through the decks w/ the deterioration of the wreck, though highly unlikey as no passangers aboard during that voyage noticed any guns.

as for one torpedo being enough to sink lusitania without high explosives on board. well it would cetainly be possible without the 2nd explosion. Read Garzke "Titanic Ships, Titanic Disasters, Snames,2001.
> [Theory? My own, We were suckered into the British side of the conflict. Guns? Passengers never would have seen them, One, if they were there they would be far below decks. Second, the Admiralty had closed off the forward part of the ship including one of the dining rooms Why?? Afraid somebody would find something or was this area a high risk area in case of fire or explosion?? Three, Schwiegers torpedoes didn't have much kick if they did work,he had to use more than one and then his deck gun to finish even smaller ships. Four, Gun Cotton like you say no written proof exists unless Dupont has a musty old archive hidden someplace. Five How much cheese can a Navy base consume? Six, Coal Dust maybe but she was at the end of her voyage and crews are usually very careful about venting empty stocker holds and getting them ready for the next port to re fill. The whole affair does not smell like roses to me it has the odor of the southbound end of a northbound jackass who just finished a baked bean dinner mitt sauerkraut. will tell you this, I was on a British ship and Colin Simpson was also a passenger. We did not meet but the staff captain who I cannot name told me mid voyage, the ship had recieved a Telex from the government reminding them that they recieved a healthy subsidy and it would be in their best interests not to grant Mr. Simpson any special favours if he should ask. Ouch' somebody's toes get stepped on or did someone see a skeleton in the closet? I did mentiob earlier when I was asked by the First Sea Lord what other ships I lecture about and I told hin I had an interest in the Lusitania but dared not to lecture about it and his reply was,"Yes, that still is a sticky can of worms with us." Mike loves it when I end my posts with this. Hmmmmmmmm! Cheers and thanks for your questions and interest it makes the world go round lop sided sometimes but it still manages to keep going Cheers again]

I am intrigued, to say the least, to understand why you should be asked any questions at all by the First Sea Lord. Where did you meet him? Why did you meet him? What function were you at that brought you into contact with one of the top men in the UK.

I Await your answer with interest

Best Wishes and Rgds

> [#1 Met House Of Lords Westminster #2 Reception #3NMM Brought about after a meeting in Buckingham with HRH The Duke of Edinburgh's Secretary ]
Mike re your post 8354, you said rumbling not a massive bang. Hmmmmmm Did not witnesses say debris shot up above the funnel when that second explosion occurred?
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