Criticism of Titanic's Officers

P

Parks Stephenson

Member
David,

Your opinion has been, and will continue to be, noted. When you are ready, I would be interested in hearing your opinion on how the elite of the British Merchant Service (and most of them RNR, to boot) navigated the finest liner ever to fly the Blue Duster up to that time into an iceberg.

You may not "hang your hat" on the expertise of the members of a mishap board...that's an attitude most seamen share. But the mariner standing in front of the "green table" is not there because of his experience, but because something bad happened to his command. In other words, he messed up. Like it or not, it is the findings of the wreck commissions, mishap boards, and fitness panels that shape the way in which a mariner will carry out his duties. And, experienced or not, it is the members of that panel that will forever define the factors that led to the disaster, so that others may learn from it.

But I'm not troubled by your protestations. In the ships in which I've served, we have a saying: "A sailor that's grumbling is a happy sailor." It's the quiet ones that are especially worrisome.

Parks
 
S

Susan Leighton

Guest
Hear, Hear Tom...I absolutely agree. This self-rightious notion that no one can project an educated opinion regarding the technical aspects associated with Titanic, unless they are experienced mariners, is preposterous and insulting.
-Susan Y. Leighton
 
D

David Haisman

Guest
''Poppycock....Insulting....Preposterous.

Words of the inexperienced no doubt and what else could they say?
When you both have some worthwhile input that may be of interest in a nautical sense then I shall respond favourably until then, if that's the best you can do, I've nothing more to add.

Parks Stephenson,

Blue Duster.....never! Correction. Red Duster or Blue Ensign.
Once again, no one disputes mistakes were made and I'm quite aware of the goings-on with Maritime Boards.
As regards to how I think Titanic was navigated to encounter an ice berg I think many of my past posts have made that quite clear.
This all becomes a bit tiresome as you must agree, as it all goes round in never ending circles but here goes again.
IMO It was a straight forward gut reaction by professional ships officers when faced with a collision and not a time to ''experiment'' with wheel and telegraph systems like many suggest.
As a Skipper myself along with many I have sailed with, they would have done that which I have outlined previously. '' Hard to port and Double ring astern because they had no time to do bugger all else !'' (Todays terminology)
The impression I got from Fred Fleet many years ago gives weight to my perceptions on that night.
Furthermore, I wouldn't have the audacity to elaborate further on their actions as I have far too much respect for those poor souls.
A little more respect from some posters wouldn't go amiss and perhaps ponder now and again as to what Titanic was all about in the first place and not some bloody soap opera.

David
 
Inger Sheil

Inger Sheil

Member
To imply that having been there, or having had so many years of experience imbues the observer with a true and accurate view of events is nonsense. The presence of a moron at a brain operation doesn't make him a neurosurgeon.

Don't think that analogy holds true or is an accurate reflection of what David is suggesting at all (as well as being rather 'preposterous and insulting' in its insinuations itself, to borrow Susan's phrase). Who would you want conducting the brain surgery - the man who has been trained, done his time in med school and his internship and has participated in operations before, or the bloke who has read about it, watched it on TV, and fancies himself more capable then the men in surgery? I'll take training and experience.

We're not talking here about the technical menchanics of ship construction and what went wrong - Richard Feynman was no doubt brilliant in his sphere, as were naval architects like Edward Wilding. We're talking about the tendency of some people who, having never experienced similar conditions or having undergone anything like similar training, feel perfectly happy to sit in judgement on those men who were there and who had to make the decisions they did. I can well understand the frustrations of those whom, like one man who is an occasional visitor to this board and who serves in the American merchant service, has had his own experiences as a lookout dismissed by an armchair theorist because they did not accord with the pet theory of one of her favourite writers on the subject - another man who had never been to sea in his life and who was a layperson in matters maritime.

Your operation room analogy would only apply if it were someone like myself who, having been to sea as a passenger many times but never having had any training or experience in commanding vessels, claimed that by simply being there I was a better observer and commentator (although I hope I show an intelligent interest in the subject of ship operations on dive liveaboards above the level of 'moron'). These people aren't observers - they're the ones who are participating in and conducting the surgery.

As an aside, I've met both Parks and David and discussed subjects like this with them. I've also spent quite a bit of time with Ilya McVey, another merchant service man on this board, and corresponded with others with seagoing experinece such as Mike Standard. That's merely on this board - in the course of my research I've also had a good deal of contact with sailors and seamen, including the Old Conways and the grandson of one of the Titanic's officers who himself went to sea and who served in the merchant service. I've found all of them not only very kind in terms of the assistance with research and very willing to answer any questions about both the theoretical and practical application of their knowledge of seamanship, but also open to discussing where matters went both right and wrong on the Titanic and how the practice of that day compared with the practice of today. As David says above, none of them wants to deter genuine interest in and research on the subject. But what they find frustrating, and I can see where the frustration arises, is with the smug half-baked theories and arch criticisms directed at the men who operated the Titanic based on a theoretical ideal of behaviour and conditions imposed by a theorist who, from the safety of his own home and operating from a lack of any practical experience at all, feels him/herself qualified to sit in judgement because this theoretical ideal was not met.

I have my own criticisms/comments/observations on these men. I've never been afraid to air them, both publicly and privately. But I am conscious of the limits of my own experience in applying these.
 
P

Parks Stephenson

Member
David,

Interesting comment about the "Blue Duster." I didn't conjure up the term myself, I have seen it in references from the 1910-1930 period. I bought a W.A. state flag in Perth about 20 years ago and it has "Blue Duster" stamped on the hoist. I have also talked with RAF personnel who refer to their flag as the "Blue Duster." But, I won't argue the point with you as the Merchant Marine may specifically NOT refer to their Ensign as a "Blue Duster" because of their own unique traditions. I am willing to stand corrected on this point unless information to the contrary comes along. If you can provide more illumination on why the Merchant Marine does not refer to their Ensign as a "Blue Duster," I would be very interested to learn from it.

David, I simply don't have enough time to read through every thread in this forum. I have not read -- therefore I am not aware of -- your thoughts on how Titanic's officers put their ship in an extremis situation with an iceberg. I was not being smart with you...given your protestations that I happened to run across in this thread, I am genuinely interested to learn your version of events.

In your protestations, I have to assume that you include me in the number of people that you accuse of wrongly judging the actions of Titanic's officers. But as I read your latest post, I have to wonder if we really are coming from different directions. I share the view expressed in your statement that the crew (Murdoch, specifically) reacted according to his training, experience, and gut instinct to the situation as he saw it. There was no time for a careful consideration of CPA geometry or to -- as you say -- "experiment" with the capability of the vessel.

The manoeuvre of turning left and ordering FULL ASTERN is corroborated by Fourth Officer Boxhall and, as you point out, a standard gut reaction. Now, as those who know me might attest, there is no single person who sailed in Titanic that night that I respect and admire more than First Officer Murdoch. Regardless, or maybe even because, of this, there are reasons to question his final orders, as reported by Boxhall and assumed by an army of pundits since 1912:

- In the evidence: none of the surviving engine-room personnel testified to a FULL ASTERN order. The only order reported by eyewitnesses was STOP.
- In the evidence: boiler-room personnel testified that the first change in order (FULL to STOP) was before the collision. As you undoubtedly know, boiler-room personnel would neither know nor care if the ship were running ahead or astern.
- Absence from the evidence: any description of events that would be consistent with crashing back the engines. From my own experience in ships of Titanic's tonnage (and larger), I find the lack of any mention -- by both crew and passengers -- of the kind of shuddering vibration that accompanies a reversal in shaft direction to be illuminating.
- Indirect interpretation of the evidence: The character of the collision itself, as described by both crew and passengers, is more consistent with a grounding strike than impact along the side. If the collision was strong enough to shear rivets and displace steel, why didn't surviving crewmembers from the bow area recall being thrown sideways off their feet? Third Officer Pitman's recollection that the collision felt to him like the chain was being run out sounds to me -- with my experience as a reference -- like a grounding.
- Forensic evidence: The character of the damage brings in question a simple port turn. Why wasn't the damage carried farther aft?
- From the evidence: Eyewitness testimony that as the berg slid aft, the stern of the ship was seen to move away from the ice. Yes, the ship would react to the berg (and vice versa), but that quickly? Not a ship of Titanic's size, in my experience.
- From the evidence: QM Olliver's recollection of Murdoch's order for a starboard turn.
- From the evidence: QM Rowe's recollection that Titanic's bow pointed north.
- Forensic evidence: The bow section of the wreck points north. Repeated tow tank tests with a wreck model consistently indicated that that section of the wreck would tend to settle with no deviation in heading. How does Titanic's bow end up pointing north if she turned turned to port and backed engines from a westerly base course?
- Interpretation of the evidence: Murdoch's reported actions during the 1903 Arabic near-collision. In that situation, First Officer Fox reacted to a close-aboard hazard with what you described as a gut reaction...he ordered the helm to port upon seeing the light of the other vessel. Murdoch, coming on to relieve the watch, at the same instant, sized up the situation differently. Murdoch physically shoved the helmsman aside and held the wheel steady. The other ship passed down the Arabic's side with almost no room to spare. Had the deck officer's order been carried out, the Arabic would have turned into the vessel. Murdoch did not "experiment" with the helm orders, but he possessed -- at least in this situation -- a better eye for the situation than the deck officer. I do not feel it disrespectful of Murdoch to speculate that he might have done more at Titanic's conn than Boxhall's testimony indicates. In fact, I feel that I am giving the man respect that he consistently is denied by pundits.

There is more, but for purposes of this discussion, this should be enough for me to make my point.

I agree with you that we may never know the exact causal factors behind the collision. However, there is evidence to be examined and conclusions should be drawn from it. Along with any appraisal of evidence comes the question of responsibility, as it does in every maritime mishap with which I have had experience. Not guilt, mind you, but responsibility. Do I understand correctly that you hold a Master's license? As such, I would think that you would understand the need for evaluating Captain Smith's orders for the night.

I sincerely hope that you do not include me in your accusation that posters criticising Titanic's officers have no respect for the men. As I have consistently maintained, I have a deep professional respect for the manner in which they navigated their vessel. At the same time, I have accused Captain Smith of imprudent navigation. As a ship's Master, you should understand that even the most expereinced and talented Masters are forced -- by a variety of factors -- to take calculated risks. If nothing untoward happens as a result, then the Master adds to his reputation. If a mishap occurs, then that Master is held to account. The sea can strike even the best down, so evaluating a Master's actions that led to mishap is by no means an assault on the man's professionalism, experience, or talent. In my view, this is the nature of the business. If anything, my own conclusions of the causal factors behind the collision are more critical of the prevailing attitudes of the passenger shipping industry -- prompted and reinforced by Line management -- than the decisions carried out by any of Titanic's crew. However, since Smith laid down the orders that put Titanic in harm's way, he shoulders the burden of responsibility for the disaster. Knowledge that the practice of steaming full speed through a known ice field during clear conditions was accepted among Mail Boat captains (and encourgaed by Line management) at that time does not relieve Smith of his burden. I do not feel that I am being disrespectful of the man in saying this.

I have also found, throughout the course of my evaluation of the night's events, additional cause for respect of the professionalism of Titanic's crew. The manner in which they evacuated their ship was as perfect as I think it could be, others' criticism notwithstanding. I am supported in this by the fact that they managed to launch 18 boats in an orderly fashion with the gear that they had, in the time available to them. That is simply amazing to me.

So why do I feel that I should involve myself in this appraisal? Because of frustration with the implications regarding the crew's fitness for duty in the popular history of the disaster. Because the ship foundered, and because people naturally tend to assign blame, some historians either directly accuse or insinuate through omission that Titanic's crew were not professionally competent. In order to rebut this, one must be prepared to address the question of responsibility. If one is unable to do, then a full argument cannot be made. I believe that a full appraisal of the responsibilities and actions of Titanic's crew is the only way to credibly demonstrate their true professionalism to detractors. Failing to do so gives the appearance that one is avoiding painful truths. Essentially, then, it is out of respect for Titanic's crew that I examine their responsibilities and hold them accountable for their actions.

Parks
 
T

Tom Pappas

Guest
I have not, and will not, impugn any individual's worthiness to comment on matters maritime, whether s/he has never see a body of water large enough to see across, or has been at sea for years and years. There simply is no correlation between experience and authoritativeness, one way or the other.

Having been there does not make one right, and the inverse is equally valid.
 
Michael H. Standart

Michael H. Standart

Member
>>There simply is no correlation between experience and authoritativeness, one way or the other.<<

Really?

Have you ever stood a lookout in freezing cold conditions on a stormy sea in a near pea soup fog in Novemeber? I've done that...all the time praying that there wasn't a huge wave out there with my name on it or a ship luking in that fog that I couldn't possibly see befor it was too late. Since I was out there in the eyes of the ship, I knew I would be the first to get it.

Can the armchair theorist appriciate just how debilitating such conditions are on the watchstanders? Can the armchair theorist possibly understand the pucker factor that goes with knowing that you'll be the first to "get it" if things go south on you?

Not a chance.

This is just one area where been-there-done-that counts for a helluva lot more then those of the armchair theorist who has no idea what such people are up against while trying their level best to do their jobs. There are others.

Damage control for example. The armchair theorist can get a good book understanding of the proceedures and methods used, but can he possibly understand that damage control in application is as much art and guesswork as science? Can he understand what it's like to have to figure out things on the fly and have to make fast decisions in a fluid and ever changing situation and save the ship? Can the armchair theorist really understand what it's like to try and isolate damage in fire, smoke and flooding, (The crew of the USS Cole can!) or to shore up a bulkhead and hope the shoring holds even when something else is going wrong? Like the ship trying to split in half under your feet! (Ask the crew of the USS Samual B. Roberts! They faced exactly that situation.)

I doubt it.

I'll be the first to conceed that the experts are not inspired inerrant, and likewise I'll conceed that there are things one can't hope to understand without hitting the books and doing the homework. I'll also conceed that you need the armchair theorists to ask some of the hard questions when an accounting is called for.

At the same time, to understand the theory is one thing, to understand the day to day practical realities is a whole 'nother smoke. In their ruminations and deliberations, the armchair theorists would do very well to give the due credit to the people who have the training, experience and expertise to know what they're talking about.

You might want to think about that awhile.
 
T

Tom Pappas

Guest
Parks said, "The manner in which they evacuated their ship was as perfect as I think it could be, others' criticism notwithstanding. I am supported in this by the fact that they managed to launch 18 boats in an orderly fashion with the gear that they had, in the time available to them. That is simply amazing to me."

The evacuation would only have been "as perfect as it could be" if (at least) 473 more had survived. The fact that four more boats, having 358 more occupants, were disembarked in the last 35 minutes than in the first 30 suggests rather strongly that the first half-hour could have been used more productively.
 
P

Parks Stephenson

Member
Tom,

I disagree, but that is a topic for another discussion. I only mentioned it as an illustrative example...I don't have to be correct in this particular assertion in order to make my larger point relevant to the topic of this thread. By pointing it out, though, I think you are providing an example of what David is talking about.

Parks
 
P

Parks Stephenson

Member
Addendum,

I will, however, in light of Tom's comment, change, "The manner in which they evacuated their ship was as perfect as I think it could be, others' criticism notwithstanding." to "I personally cannot find fault with the manner in which they chose to evacuate their ship, others' criticism notwithstanding."

Parks
 
D

David Haisman

Guest
Thanks for that Michael. I just haven't got the patience to answer the fellow!

Parks Stephenson,

Everything you've written here I've read before on this site and I yearn for someone to come up with something new.
Ever considered that perhaps you're covering the same ground over and over again ?
Unless you have crossed the Atlantic throughout the seasons as a navigating officer, trained our way, and without todays navigational wizardry, then unfortunately for you, you're very much in the same boat as the rest.

Quite frankly, nothing you've written makes you an expert or anything close to it and I'm afraid much of what you say in your post doesn't impress me at all.
As regards to the Blue Ensign being referred to as a ''duster'' this is an insult to those that serve under the RFA, RNR, HM Customs and other services around the British Isles qualified to fly it. They are all ensigns under their own right.
You didn't mention which Perth gave you such ''valuable'' misleading information but I would hazard a guess as to their reasons.
The Merchant Navy obviously is a commercial enterprise and ''duster'' is acceptable and the only flag termed as such. Take my word for it!.
Finally, when you break into the realms of testimony be careful when you quote it.
There is such a thing as ''attitude'' when seamen are abroad and unless you've been involved with a group, up before the ''beak'' in a foreign land, you wouldn't understand it. That also applies when they're at home as well! !

David
 
H

Harriet Collingham

Guest
"Interesting comment about the "Blue Duster." I didn't conjure up the term myself, I have seen it in references from the 1910-1930 period. I bought a W.A. state flag in Perth about 20 years ago and it has "Blue Duster" stamped on the hoist. I have also talked with RAF personnel who refer to their flag as the "Blue Duster." But, I won't argue the point with you as the Merchant Marine may specifically NOT refer to their Ensign as a "Blue Duster" because of their own unique traditions. I am willing to stand corrected on this point unless information to the contrary comes along. If you can provide more illumination on why the Merchant Marine does not refer to their Ensign as a "Blue Duster," I would be very interested to learn from it."

Parks, I do believe the Merchant Navy's Ensign is red. The RAF and RN are the blue Ensign.

I believe that the Officers of Titanic performed to the best of their capability at that time, and made prudent decisions (which in the course turned out to be the wrong ones) but nevertheless.
Not holding the correct certification I cannot comment on how I would feel to be in that position, or my actions forthwith.
regards,
Hattie
 
D

Dennis Smith

Member
Hi Parks,
The "Red Duster" is the flag of the British Merchant navy and has been since 1864 (90% sure on that date). There are however many merchant ships which can and do fly the blue ensign, but I have never heard of it ever being called the "Blue Duster". Ships of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (Royal Navy Supply) have it,any merchant ship with a Royal Navy Reserve Officer in command or with Officers and ratings and holding an Admiralty Warrant fly one plus the others mentioned in David`s post above. I do know of another group of ships that fly the blue ensign - Hospital Ships which to me at least,shows Britannic more likely to have been sunk by a mine, there again if the commander of a U boat would ignore the red crosses I suppose he would ignore the ensign.

Best wishes and Rgds

Dennis
 
D

David Haisman

Guest
Thank you Harriet and Dennis.
It's good to see someone from this side of the pond taking an interest in this topic.
Incidently Harriet, the Royal Navy usually fly the White Ensign. You are both right in all your observations and along with the RAF, also the RFA. ( Royal Fleet Auxillary.)
It's good to hear from you both.
Best Wishes
David.
 
D

Dennis Smith

Member
Harriet,
Think you made a mistake there in your post. The Royal Navy do not fly the Blue Ensign I`m afraid, they exclusively fly the White Ensign. Hope you`re not miffed at me correcting you, - sorry.

P.S. How come you siarad cymraig when you live in England, have you moved away from this beautiful land? (Bet you had problems with spell checker - Ho Ho Ho)

Best Wishes and Rgds

Dennis
 
Top