Ben Lemmon
Member
DDeck
- Thread starter Ben Lemmon
- Start date
Lester Mitcham
Member
Ben,
In general 2nd Class was located aft of the 4th funnel. -Promenade at the after end of the Boat-deck. Smoke Room aft on B-deck. The Library immediately below on C-deck. - Both with promenade areas. - The Dinning Saloon immediately below on D-deck with a number of staterooms. - all 3 public rooms were located between the 2 staircases. - E-deck you already know about. There were more staterooms on F-deck and a block of rooms on G-deck that could alternatively be 2nd or 3rd Class.
For the location of D-56 see the attached.
In general 2nd Class was located aft of the 4th funnel. -Promenade at the after end of the Boat-deck. Smoke Room aft on B-deck. The Library immediately below on C-deck. - Both with promenade areas. - The Dinning Saloon immediately below on D-deck with a number of staterooms. - all 3 public rooms were located between the 2 staircases. - E-deck you already know about. There were more staterooms on F-deck and a block of rooms on G-deck that could alternatively be 2nd or 3rd Class.
For the location of D-56 see the attached.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ben Lemmon
Member
Lester,
Do you know what?? You completely rock!!
. That gives me a great idea as to what cabin they will have used during the voyage. I'll come to you if I have more questions like this.
Do you know what?? You completely rock!!
George L. Lorton
Member
Lester and Ben. Would Children from different Classes have mixed though. The Goodwins were Third Class but were English and might of taken another Class on another boat but were stuck in Steerage(Third Class). Would they have mixed with a Child from Second Class just curious. I think they would of or could of. Food for thought here.
Curious George
Curious George
Ben Lemmon
Member
I can't really think of a reason why 2nd and 3rd classes wouldn't intermingle. Middle and lower classes always seem to have gotten along, all throughout history.
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>I can't really think of a reason why 2nd and 3rd classes wouldn't intermingle.<<
I can. The classes were segregated and this segregation was taken very seriously then and for decades thereafter. The 3rd class especially was kept seperate from the rest if only to avoid problems with clearing through immigration.
I can. The classes were segregated and this segregation was taken very seriously then and for decades thereafter. The 3rd class especially was kept seperate from the rest if only to avoid problems with clearing through immigration.
Lester Mitcham
Member
Heaven forbid. Or in this case US Immigration Laws.
Titanic's Certificates for Clearance contained two Passenger Classes. - Cabin [1st & 2nd Class] and Steerage [3rd Class]. Never should they come into contact.
3rd Class carried Inspection Cards. 2nd Class did not.
This was posted by Bob Godfrey to the E-T Message Board 27 August 2005: Quote:
".......... The card itself was an indication of steerage, as the other classes of passengers didn't require them."
and Quote:
"An initial inspection took place before boarding the ship, but there was a further round of examinations at Ellis Island if arriving at New York. Other ports of arrival, like Boston, had similar establishments. Anybody found to be suffering from an incurable disease or disability was deported at the expense of the shipping line, who also had to pay a hefty fine, and that's why they conducted their own medical inspection before the steerage passengers were allowed to board. The ailments which caused most concern were trachoma (a highly infectious and potentially fatal disease of the eye), cholera, TB, epilepsy, skin diseases and any form of incurable mental or physical infirmity which might make the immigrant unemployable.
Unlike the steerage, those who could afford the price of a ticket in the cabin classes (1st and 2nd) were assumed as a group to be healthy, sane, honest and well-healed! Even in 3rd Class, US citizens and those 'aliens' who were not first-time arrivals were spared some or all of the screening procedures for entry to the US."
My understanding is that the main reason for the separation of Cabin Class [= 1st & 2nd Class] from Steerage [or 3rd Class] was a requirement of US Immigration. Interestingly doors between the two classes were lockable from the 3rd Class side. This from a post by Bruce Beveridge to the E-T Message Board 27 February 2005: Quote:
"I just want to add a bit to this. After reading the BOT regulations pertaining to Immigration ships from 1911, I found that they did acknowledge emergency passages. In fact any emergency passage from steerage through an upper class compartment was to be avoided, but was allowed if the design of the ship required it and was approved by the surveyor. In any case, it was illegal to have locks on these doors, intended for Steerage through upper class compartments, where the locking mechanism was on the upper class side of the door. In other words, the doors along Scotland Road that communicated directly with the 1st class staircase, and 2nd class staircases had the locking/securing mechanism on the Scotland Road side. From looking at the 2nd class purser's area in a photo, the emergency door was paneled to fit the decor of the room. I believe the design of these doors would have made them basically hidden from view on the upper class side - or in this case the starboard side. This is probably why there was no door visible along the bulkhead of the 1st class companionway on E deck in one particular dive Cameron was on - not because there was no door there, but because the hardware was on the other side."
Lester
Titanic's Certificates for Clearance contained two Passenger Classes. - Cabin [1st & 2nd Class] and Steerage [3rd Class]. Never should they come into contact.
3rd Class carried Inspection Cards. 2nd Class did not.
This was posted by Bob Godfrey to the E-T Message Board 27 August 2005: Quote:
".......... The card itself was an indication of steerage, as the other classes of passengers didn't require them."
and Quote:
"An initial inspection took place before boarding the ship, but there was a further round of examinations at Ellis Island if arriving at New York. Other ports of arrival, like Boston, had similar establishments. Anybody found to be suffering from an incurable disease or disability was deported at the expense of the shipping line, who also had to pay a hefty fine, and that's why they conducted their own medical inspection before the steerage passengers were allowed to board. The ailments which caused most concern were trachoma (a highly infectious and potentially fatal disease of the eye), cholera, TB, epilepsy, skin diseases and any form of incurable mental or physical infirmity which might make the immigrant unemployable.
Unlike the steerage, those who could afford the price of a ticket in the cabin classes (1st and 2nd) were assumed as a group to be healthy, sane, honest and well-healed! Even in 3rd Class, US citizens and those 'aliens' who were not first-time arrivals were spared some or all of the screening procedures for entry to the US."
My understanding is that the main reason for the separation of Cabin Class [= 1st & 2nd Class] from Steerage [or 3rd Class] was a requirement of US Immigration. Interestingly doors between the two classes were lockable from the 3rd Class side. This from a post by Bruce Beveridge to the E-T Message Board 27 February 2005: Quote:
"I just want to add a bit to this. After reading the BOT regulations pertaining to Immigration ships from 1911, I found that they did acknowledge emergency passages. In fact any emergency passage from steerage through an upper class compartment was to be avoided, but was allowed if the design of the ship required it and was approved by the surveyor. In any case, it was illegal to have locks on these doors, intended for Steerage through upper class compartments, where the locking mechanism was on the upper class side of the door. In other words, the doors along Scotland Road that communicated directly with the 1st class staircase, and 2nd class staircases had the locking/securing mechanism on the Scotland Road side. From looking at the 2nd class purser's area in a photo, the emergency door was paneled to fit the decor of the room. I believe the design of these doors would have made them basically hidden from view on the upper class side - or in this case the starboard side. This is probably why there was no door visible along the bulkhead of the 1st class companionway on E deck in one particular dive Cameron was on - not because there was no door there, but because the hardware was on the other side."
Lester
Bob Godfrey
Member
Further to Bruce's comments, Lester, a number of witnesses testified at the British Inquiry that those doors were never locked while the vessel was at sea, but only as a security measure while in port. Edward Wilding, for instance:
I was going to ask you a question about the name 'emergency door.' The very name 'emergency door' suggests that it is ordinarily shut? - Yes.
How many of these emergency doors are there? - There are in all three, one to the forward first class main stairway. In each case they come from the working alleyway.
You mean Scotland Road? - From Scotland Road. There is one leading direct into the forward first class entrance from Scotland Road up on to the top, and then you can go on there; one from Scotland Road into the forward second class entrance, and one from Scotland Road into the after second class entrance.
How are these emergency doors shut? - With an ordinary handle, as far as I know, my Lord. They have means for locking them, but I understand they are not locked at sea.
They are not locked? - Not locked - I understand not. There is a lock on them, but I understand they are not locked at sea. I have frequently passed through them at sea.
What is the object of having a door there? - The passage is used by the third class passengers and crew extensively, and it is to prevent their being able to get in without continuously watching them. That was the intention. If you do not put doors there, or barriers of some sort, you would have to have somebody continuously stationed there to prevent people going into the second class accommodation and losing their way, for example.
The point is that there was reliance on the presence of crew members, or simply the presence of a door or a sign, not locks, to keep the passengers in their place. Likewise, the famous gates at the top of the ladders leading up from the well decks were never locked. Indeed they had no provision for locking, just a bolt or latch like a garden gate, which anybody could operate. As we know, however, some of the 3rd Class passengers assumed they were locked and thought it necessary to climb over them or break them.
So to Ben I would say it was physically possible for people to get into places where they were not allowed. Most adults would have respected the rules, but kids being kids ...
.
I was going to ask you a question about the name 'emergency door.' The very name 'emergency door' suggests that it is ordinarily shut? - Yes.
How many of these emergency doors are there? - There are in all three, one to the forward first class main stairway. In each case they come from the working alleyway.
You mean Scotland Road? - From Scotland Road. There is one leading direct into the forward first class entrance from Scotland Road up on to the top, and then you can go on there; one from Scotland Road into the forward second class entrance, and one from Scotland Road into the after second class entrance.
How are these emergency doors shut? - With an ordinary handle, as far as I know, my Lord. They have means for locking them, but I understand they are not locked at sea.
They are not locked? - Not locked - I understand not. There is a lock on them, but I understand they are not locked at sea. I have frequently passed through them at sea.
What is the object of having a door there? - The passage is used by the third class passengers and crew extensively, and it is to prevent their being able to get in without continuously watching them. That was the intention. If you do not put doors there, or barriers of some sort, you would have to have somebody continuously stationed there to prevent people going into the second class accommodation and losing their way, for example.
The point is that there was reliance on the presence of crew members, or simply the presence of a door or a sign, not locks, to keep the passengers in their place. Likewise, the famous gates at the top of the ladders leading up from the well decks were never locked. Indeed they had no provision for locking, just a bolt or latch like a garden gate, which anybody could operate. As we know, however, some of the 3rd Class passengers assumed they were locked and thought it necessary to climb over them or break them.
So to Ben I would say it was physically possible for people to get into places where they were not allowed. Most adults would have respected the rules, but kids being kids ...
.
Ben Lemmon
Member
" . . . but kids being kids ... "
----------------------------------------------------
You read my mind exactly.
. Wasn't it also possible for 2nd class to go into 3rd class if they *wanted* to? I mean, not a lot of people really wanted to, but if you had made a friend in third class somehow, wouldn't it be possible to go there if you were a higher class? I know Rose does it in the movie, although I'm not relying on that as a source. That's why I am making sure that it was possible. By the way, that public room shown in the deleted scenes on "Titanic," where was that??
----------------------------------------------------
You read my mind exactly.
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>Wasn't it also possible for 2nd class to go into 3rd class if they *wanted* to?<<
While it would be possible for somebody to do something like this if they really, really, really wanted to do, they would be courting some measure of trouble doing so. 1st Class passengers on some liners were reputed to make something of a sport of this sort of thing and the practice was sometimes known as "Slumming"
For the reasons already cited above, it was strongly discouraged.
While it would be possible for somebody to do something like this if they really, really, really wanted to do, they would be courting some measure of trouble doing so. 1st Class passengers on some liners were reputed to make something of a sport of this sort of thing and the practice was sometimes known as "Slumming"
For the reasons already cited above, it was strongly discouraged.
Bob Godfrey
Member
With special dispensation, yes - the Catholic priests travelling in 2nd Class for instance were allowed into 3rd Class to say Mass. But casually for social contact, no. I'm not saying it wasn't done, but certainly not openly as in Cameron's film. The ruling was that no passenger of whatever Class was allowed into the areas allocated to either of the other two Classes.
George L. Lorton
Member
I think though that a clever child might of been able to go into another class maybe. If they behaved well and didn't call attention to themselves.
Ben Lemmon
Member
Looking at the layout of the ship, I wonder if they had to enter another class at some point. How did 3rd class get to their places? I know their mess hall and whatnot was close to them, but what about getting to the bow? I know that was part of the third class area. I agree with George. I'm pretty sure a clever child, using pain and crying as a muse, would be able to get past these guards. How enforcing were these guards anyway?
Lester Mitcham
Member
>>How did 3rd class get to their places?<<
If you mean where did they board. My understanding is via the aft gangway door on E-deck. It gave direct access to Scotland Road.- At Cherbourg I understand the forward port-side door on E-deck. I'm not sure about Queenstown. - It could have been either of the forward doors on E-deck or the after port-one.
>>what about getting to the bow?<<
The same way they got to their Dining Saloons, which were in the middle of the ship. - via Scotland Road.
If you mean where did they board. My understanding is via the aft gangway door on E-deck. It gave direct access to Scotland Road.- At Cherbourg I understand the forward port-side door on E-deck. I'm not sure about Queenstown. - It could have been either of the forward doors on E-deck or the after port-one.
>>what about getting to the bow?<<
The same way they got to their Dining Saloons, which were in the middle of the ship. - via Scotland Road.
Ben Lemmon
Member
So Scotland Road was for the 3rd class passengers, was it? Just by the name, I assumed it was for 1st class for some reason. OK, so do you think that it would be possible for children to get from one area to another as children were often mischievous? I could see one or two children doing that. Do you think that it would be possible for a child to be mistaken for another class, say if he was dirty or something, not that I'm trying to say that 3rd class people were dirty. One more question. In the cabins, did they have bathtubs? I need to know this if I am going to make something work in my story.
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