Did Murdoch shoot himself?

[Max Nikulin]

Hi all!

Thank you for your questions ,Beverly !

Beverly ask me about 'Murdoch's suicide'
and about the dog of Murdoch.

Well , first of all about "William's dog"
That's really came from the false statement.
Then the story went to the pages of some
papers and even now some people think that's
true.
In fact- from the info the family had- William
and his wife Ada never had a dog!
No dog was onboard of the ship (which was
owned by Murdoch or other officers).

'Shot himself rumors'
I don't wanna place here all the statements
about it.Let's say first of all every historian
can take his position but we must use logic.
Well - port boat N4 -the lunching time is not
known for sure (1:00 or 1:55 (a.m.)) I think it
happened 1:55 from my own research.
Mrs Widener was aboard. Later she wrote in a
letter that she've seen 1st officer shot himself!

HOW could she see what was on the starboard side
while the boat left from the port side??

The boat rowed FROM the Titanic NOT AROUND HER!
And she could not see clearly the figures on deck
as the decks were crowded!
Any such reports are false!

And how could George Rheims see the event from the sea better than Col. Gracie or Harold Bride
(etc.)
It's just Cameron-like people who can use false info to make their stories more dramatic!!
And the last -H.T. Wilde(chief off.) was the first person
(from the officers ) who was blamed in shooting
himself and yet his rich relatives closed the "Wilde" story and press had changed it to
"Murdoch" suicide.

And about passengers being shot- .
No statements from reliable witnesses were
discovered by my research.
And all of existing statements...well,
such people made their fortune on stories like
those...

My work continues so check out my new posts.

Best Regards.

Max Nikulin

 

[Tad G. Fitch]

Dear Max,
Hello, how are you doing? It is nice to "meet" you. I agree with your opinion completely regarding the Rigel the dog story, which is complete and utter nonsense. I also share your doubts about the Widener account of seeing an officer shoot himself.

You wrote:
"And how could George Rheims see the event from the sea better than Col. Gracie or Harold Bride
(etc.)"

George Rheims did not see the event from the sea. This is what one website states, but it is an entirely innacurate statement. Rheims was standing on deck when he claims to have witnessed the unnamed officer shoot a man who was trying to push his way into the last boat, bid those around him farewell and then shoot himself in the head. Rheims mentioned this in a private letter to his wife, and in a press interview given the following day.

Also, Harold Bride did not know any of the officers of the Titanic personally, and was on the port side of the ship when the Titanic sank (he stated this in all of his 1912 accounts), so he would have been unable to state anything regarding the fate of First Officer Murdoch, or any of the other officers who were on the starboard side of the ship at the time, despite his alleged 1950s interview, which is completely at odds with his 1912 accounts. The same can be said of Colonel Gracie, who states in his book that he did not know any of the officers personally. He also did not see Murdoch or any other officer swept overboard, although he believes that they were.

"It's just Cameron-like people who can use false info to make their stories more dramatic!!"

James Cameron did not make up the story at all, although the scene did make the story more dramatic.

"And the last -H.T. Wilde(chief off.) was the first person (from the officers ) who was blamed in shooting himself and yet his rich relatives closed the "Wilde" story and press had changed it to "Murdoch" suicide."

This is entirely innacurate. The first officer implicated in the suicide was actually Captain Smith, but the focus then shifted largely to First Officer Murdoch. Only a few small claims about Wilde shooting himself have ever been found (and never any eyewitness testimony about this), these claims being outnumbered by the press claims about Chief Engineer Bell being the one who shot himself, which is pretty improbable.

The claims about Wilde's relatives have been largely emphasized by the webmaster of one website, but there has never been any solid evidence brought forward to support the assertion that Wilde's relatives tried to hush up any suicide stories or shift the blaim to anyone else. Geoff, have you been able to uncover anything new about this story?

"And about passengers being shot- .
No statements from reliable witnesses were
discovered by my research."

How about George Rheims, as mentioned above, and Eugene Daly, who was on the ship at the time, and mentioned the incident in over twelve accounts, including private letters, to family members, in press accounts, and in his 1915 testimony in the limitation of liability hearings? Or what about the statements of Richard Norris Williams in his privately published account, in which he states as the boat deck was going under, he heard gunshots right behind him, but "did not look around"? He was standing in the same area as Rheims and Daly, and heard gunshots, and at the same time that both alleged the incident happened. The list of witnesses does not end there, although everyone can agree that it is difficult to find any rock solid evidence implicating a specific officer, though we can narrow down the list of possibilities.

"And all of existing statements...well,
such people made their fortune on stories like
those..."

I fail to see how Rheims, Daly or Williams made money on telling stories such as these. Rheims and Williams were first class passengers and rich, so this would not be much of a motivation for them to make up the stories, especially since they told of the incident in private accounts, except for the one press interview Rheims gave about it. As for Daly, he certainly did not make any money writing letters to his family, or testifying in the courtroom under oath.

I hope that you don't think I am being overly critical of your assesments here, but I just thought that I would point out that some of them are incorrect. I have been researching this subject for a few years now, and this never ceases to be a very controversial subject, and will probably remain so. If you have not already done so, I definitely suggest checking out George Behe's website for a page about this subject, and definitely recommend visiting Bill Wormstedt's website page entitled "Shots in the Dark" for a thorough look at all the evidence, without any spinning, which allows you to make up your mind for yourself. It's definitely worth a look. The addresses can be found in the links section on this site. I hope that this information helps. All my best,
Tad Fitch

 

[Beverly J. Crowder]

Wow! I have really opened up the preverbally can of worms here, haven't I...
Yes, I am going to the Shots in the Dark website and am doing to do some more reading from here, but I love to hear what others have read and researched and have to say also.

Thank you so much all for the information, I think I am going on systems overload now..

Beverly

 

[Max Nikulin]

Dear Tad

Here's my points-

Extract from the book of Col. Gracie
===================
"Third: Did either the Captain or the First officer shoot himself? Not withstanding all the current rumors and
newspaper statements answering this question affirmatively, I have been unable to find any passenger or member of
the crew cited as authority for the statement that either Captain Smith or First Officer Murdoch did anything of the
sort. On the contrary, so far as relates to Captain Smith, there are several witnesses, including Harold S. Bride, the
Junior Marconi operator, who saw him at the last on the bridge of his ship, and later, when sinking and struggling in
the water. Neither can I discover any authentic testimony about First Officer Murdoch’s shooting himself. On the
contrary, I find fully sufficient evidence that he did not. He was a brave and efficient officer and no sufficient motive
for self-destruction can be advanced. He performed his full duty under difficult circumstances, and was entitled to
praise and honor. During the last fifteen minutes before the ship sank, I was located at that quarter forward on the
boat deck, starboard side, where Murdoch was in command and where the crew under him were engaged in the vain
attempt of launching the Engelhard boat. The report of a pistol shot during this interval ringing in my ears within a
few feet of me would certainly have attracted my attention, and later, when I moved astern, the distance was not so
great as to prevent my hearing it."

======================
So As you know Mr Gracie was very relible
witness-and this statement is to add one more
fact to the "False suicide story"

As for Mr Bride- well.. One can believe 1912 statement and some can believe in Mr Robertson's
position.Bride might be confused back then (1912)
And could have remember some facts- as you know
it's quite easy to pass from "port" side to
"starboard"


Mr Rheims stated that:
----------------
"While the last boat was leaving, I saw an officer with a revolver fire a shot and kill a man who was trying to climb
into it. As there remained nothing more to do, the officer told us, "Gentlemen, each man for himself, good-bye." He
gave a military salute and then fired a bullet into his head. That’s what I call a man!!!"
---------------------
He mentioned that the "last boat" was leaving -
here's the mistake!! This statement IS NOT about
"A" boat as it was never launched by the officers!
And if it WAS "A" I hardly believe that he didn't
helped to attach it to davits anyway.

Besides he could see Mr Wilde (! Not Murdoch !)
shot himself as he was probably on the starboard
side of the ship.

Anyway Mr Lightoller's letter to Ada add more
mystery to the story .
Lights stated in 1912 nothing about this story.
So you can say that he wrote a letter with such
a false statement??And all survivin' officers
signed it??? And what about officers' honor??

About Mr Wilde-the site I used may have mistakes
I seen 'em myself -that's true.But I can't say that concernin' Wilde because the papers were mentioned and I cannot get copies of it by now.
So this theory can be true!
(Papers: Sunday April 21st 1912 'News of the World'
and 'Liverpool Echo' (1912 time as I think))

Well see for yourself and I hope that next week
I'll add you something from my brand- new research.
By the way- you know that historians of 1912 and
modern historians state different arguements for
this story...

Best Regards

Max Nikulin

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, Max:

I don't even pretend to be an expert in this area, but a couple points immediately come to mind.

First, Colonel Gracie *was* a very reliable witness and diligent researcher in general, but he certainly wasn't infallible. If I recall correctly, he also insisted that the ship never broke in two. And a few other assertions in that book have likewise since been discovered to be in error, though that certainly doesn't negate the fine investigative work he did! But Colonel Gracie was just one man. He couldn't be everywhere at once!

Second, I'm unclear on what you're ultimately getting at here. On the one hand I think you're asserting that the suicide accounts are entirely false, but then it looks like you're suggesting that -- if they aren't -- it must have been Wilde:

[hr]

Quote:

Besides he could see Mr Wilde (! Not Murdoch !) shot himself as he was probably on the starboard side of the ship.

[hr]​

Again maybe I'm just not following you here, but which is it that you're claiming to support -- that there's no basis for believing that any officer shot himself, or that Murdoch definitely didn't so, while someone else might have? I'm not at all clear on this one.

Finally, regarding that letter of consolation to Murdoch's wife from the officers, it's hard for me to imagine that going down any other way, true or not. There's an old adage that one should never say something unless it has at least two of the following qualities: truth; helpfulness; or kindness. And it's certainly beyond my grasp to think that the officers, compelled by their own loyalty and sense of humanity would ever have penned such an unpalatable truth as "Your husband blew his brains out" to the grieving widow of a beloved comrade. It's just unthinkable!

Now, I'm not saying he did -- I don't know for sure -- I'm just saying I find it remarkably naive to think for even a moment that such a cruel disclosure would be relayed by friends to a heartbroken spouse! (Let's be fair, here.) That letter stands as a testament to those fellow officers' sense of compassion, but I doubt it constitutes anything remotely resembling "courtroom" evidence. Moreover, it might as readily be countered that the assurances that Murdoch did not commit suicide are *only* found in that letter -- no such vociferous denunciation occurred during any of the testimony. Did it?

Saying this without malice, there were a good many things Lightoller did not mention in 1912. Like some of the others, this one is probably more properly relegated to the category of, "Some things are better left unsaid."

Just my humble opinion.

Regards,
John Feeney

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Hello everybody. I must agree with Max here; the only two people who actually claim they SAW an officer shoot himself or other people were George Rheims and Eugene Daly. Two witnesses. One of whom, Eugene Daly, may and may not have been on the ship the last ten-twenty minutes. I know that many people believe what survivors said implicitly, but in Mr Daly's story there are some inconsistencies, leading me to doubt his story. He is one of the more than 80 survivors who claimed he had to swim for it, when there in fact only were 44 or 45 who were saved in this way. Nobody confirmed the presence of Mr Daly in boat A or B or saved by No 4 or 14 (he did himself, obviously). One might say that Mr Daly re the alleged shootings is a doubtful witness. Please note that I am not denying it might have been that he was right, but it cannot be confirmed.
This leaves us with Mr Rheims only. One reliable witness (as far as I know).
I must say I never thought anyone was shot or killed himself - not by any means claiming to be right, however.

Best regards,

Peter

 

[Tad G. Fitch]

Hello everyone,
How are all of you doing? Good I hope. John, I must agree with you regarding Archibald Gracie's book. While it is an excellent contemporary work on the disaster, and most, including myself, rank it right up there with Beesley's account, there are a number of errors in the book. One example is how Colonel Gracie furvently claims that the ship did not break in two, because when he quite literally went down with the ship when the boat deck submerged, there was "no sign of any impending breakup of the deck or ship." We know that the ship did break in two, but Gracie did not see it, so he did not believe the stories, instead relying on Lightoller's words about this, amongst others.

Max, while Colonel Gracie states definitively in the one section of your book that you quoted above that he was in the same section of the boat deck as First Officer Murdoch, earlier in his book he states that Clinch Smith and he went to the forward starboard side of the boat deck where as he "afterwards learned," the officer in command was First Officer Murdoch. In other places in the book, he makes it clear that he did not know several of the officers personally at the time of the sinking, so he would have been unable to say with any certainty who he saw at Collapsible A, and how they died. We know that what he was told about Murdoch working at Collapsible A is correct, but Gracie was not on the forward section of the boat deck when it plunged under, but had moved aft near the expansion joint with Clinch Smith, and was deep in a crowd of third class passengers who had just come up from below. He states that he did not think the distance was so great as to prevent him from hearing a gunshot, but who knows with the noise and chaos at the time? Earlier in his account, Gracie neglects to mention hearing the warning shots that had been fired at Collapsible C, that over 12 people were witnesses to. Gracie had moved aft before the boat deck began plunging under, and he did not see the officers actually swept overboard, so he is not a first hand witness to their death, although his word about not hearing a gunshot must be taken into account. Remember that R.N. Williams, in his private account of the sinking, mentioned that while he was on the very front of the boat deck as it began to plunge under, he heard gunshots behind him, but he did not look around to see what had happened, and refused to speculate about it.

Peter wrote:
"I must agree with Max here; the only two people who actually claim they SAW an officer shoot himself or other people were George Rheims and Eugene Daly. Two witnesses."

Peter, that statement is entirely innacurate. There were several more people who claim to have witnessed an officer shoot himself. Have you ever visited Bill's or George Behe's webpages dealing with this subject? I personally have informed you in the past that these two witnesses are not the only two to the alleged incident, but you seem to have ignored this again. While I agree that we will never know for certain if the shooting/suicide actually took place, there are certainly more than two people who were on the ship at the time and claim to have witnessed the incident.

"One of whom, Eugene Daly, may and may not have been on the ship the last ten-twenty minutes."

Again, Peter, you know that this statement is innacurate. As I have told you several times in the past, and you have ignored, Eugene Daly was in a hospital after the disaster, and in his claim filed in 1913 and in his 1915 limitation of liability testimony, he details these injuries, which were "from the waist down" and deemed of "the permanent nature." Carpathia passenger Dr. Blackmarr stated both in his handwritten notes and his manuscript that Daly was brought aboard the ship unconscious, and kept lapsing into unconsciousness after he was revived. These are symptoms of hypothermia. In edition, as you already know since I sent you it previously, Edward Dorking mentioned an Irish passenger who he did not recognize, but was on Collapsible B with him, and was not referring to Mr. O'Keefe, who he mentioned by name earlier in the article.

I agree with all of you that we will never know for certain exactly what happened that night, or who was involved, but *all* the evidence should be taken into consideration regardless of how someone feels about it personally. Again, I urge all of you to visit Bill's webpage on this subject if you have not done so already.
All my best,
Tad Fitch

 

[Tad G. Fitch]

Dear Max,
How are you doing this weekend? Good I hope. There are a few other points that I feel that I need to address here regarding this subject.

You wrote:
"As for Mr Bride- well.. One can believe 1912 statement and some can believe in Mr Robertson's
position.Bride might be confused back then (1912)
And could have remember some facts- as you know
it's quite easy to pass from "port" side to
"starboard"

This is a highly unlikely scenario, considering that Bride gave at least two detailed accounts about his experiences in 1912, one to the press and one to the Marconi company, and testified in the inquiries as well. In all 1912 versions of his story, he states that he was on the port side of the ship near Collapsible B when he was washed overboard, and never mentions anything about being on the starboard side as the ship plunged under. Also taking into account that Bride testified that he *did not* know any of the officers on the Titanic, this makes one question his alleged claims about seeing Murdoch or Moody swept overboard, and makes one question the overall reliability of Bride's latter day interview, which was given in the 1950s, and contradicts every one of his 1912 accounts on several points.

You wrote:
"He mentioned that the "last boat" was leaving -
here's the mistake!! This statement IS NOT about
"A" boat as it was never launched by the officers!"

The above claim is not entirely accurate. Collapsible A was actually hooked up to the davits and the officers were trying to load it when the boat deck submerged. So, in essence, Collapsible A was in the process of leaving. In his letter to his wife and press account, Rheims describes the incident as occuring right before the ship began plunging under, submerging the boat deck. Rheims leapt overboard right around this time. Daly describes the incident as having occured as the boat deck submerged as well, and R.N. Williams described hearing shots behind him at this exact time as well.

"And if it WAS "A" I hardly believe that he didn't helped to attach it to davits anyway."

What is so hard to believe about that? Rheims and his brother-in-law Joseph Loring were standing around trying to decide what to do next. Launching the boat was not a passenger's job, but that of crewmembers. Several passengers did help in the effort, but there is absolutely nothing peculiar or unbelievable about Rheims not having helped attach the boat to the davits.

You wrote:
"Besides he could see Mr Wilde (! Not Murdoch !)
shot himself as he was probably on the starboard
side of the ship."

Just curious, but why are you so quick to point the finger at Wilde? There is not enough evidence to 100 % implicate any individual, and especially not Wilde.

Max wrote:
"The site I used may have mistakes
I seen 'em myself -that's true.But I can't say that concernin' Wilde because the papers were mentioned and I cannot get copies of it by now.
So this theory can be true!
(Papers: Sunday April 21st 1912 'News of the World'
and 'Liverpool Echo' (1912 time as I think))"

The News of the World article has a very brief statement alleging that Chief Officer Wilde "raised his arm and shot himself" right after the collision, when Wilde was seen long after this. No actual eyewitness is mentioned, or any quotes given.

Max wrote:
"You know that historians of 1912 and
modern historians state different arguements for
this story..."

Not in every case. Colonel Gracie did not believe that the incident took place, and Beesley did not either, but Beesley was not on the ship at the time. Dr. Washington Dodge was somewhat of a historian and gave talks about the disaster. He believed that the incident occured, but his statement doesn't mean much since he was not on the ship at the time either. Dr. Frank Blackmarr, who had a manuscript that he used to give talks about the disaster, believed that the incident occurred, and because he administered medical treatment to Eugene Daly, who told him about the incident. Contemporary historians did not agree on this subject, nor do modern ones. Barring any new definitive statements of survivors being uncovered, unfortunately it will remain this way.

Well, I hope that you have a nice rest of the weekend, and that your family and your are doing well.
All my best,
Tad Fitch

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Hello Tad, how are you doing?
I have a question or two:
*Who are the other witnesses who actually saw an officer shoot himself/and or other people? The Swedes who were in the vicinity of boat A (Wennerström and Jansson) in the last minutes never said that anything to that effect happened that they saw.

*As for Daly, you know that I don't really believe what he said, at least not all of it. The only thing I know is that very few people survived in the water, but again, Daly MAY have been one of those, I do not doubt that. In that case, you believe he was one of those on boat B? I forget when Daly said he saw the officer shooting incident, sorry.

*Do the crewmembers near the scene of the alleged shooting mention anything?

Best regards,

Peter

 

[Max Nikulin]

Hi all!

So this is really a hot theme eh?

And yet I'll try to put some new thoughts here!

*First of all -John's opinion about Lightoller
If I followed you correctly you state that Lights
gave the wrong statement about the voyage (partly)(I agree) and that he wrote untrue description of
facts in his letter to Ada-Here 's the outcome:

IF it's true then we have quite a pale picture
of the events on the starboard part at the time
of "A" boat.And we can say for sure that "some"
of the officers shot himself.

Yet if it's NOT TRUE we have a proof that if
some officer shot himself it was Wilde-
some time BEFORE Lights saw Murdoch.
In that case(which I believe) I can state that
(almost) all the witnesses are telling true and
there really were 'shots in the night' -BY
WILDE.

*Next -John is 'not following' me statin' about
Wilde

I continue my research and I can suggest that Wilde shot himself- as I have some proofs in which I believe-(Maybe they are false -if I'll know it I'll change my point of view.
I research W.M. Murdoch and I 'm sure he didn't
shot himself- see above and besides-

Wilde had more reasons to shot himself anyway.
And Murdoch is not a person to do that-.
Let's take Wilde- he lost his wife, some of his children and lost his authority that night - he
was agitated that night also-So as I know him
(Wilde) and Murdoch I can tell you that Wilde was
prepared to do it AND possibly he did it after Lights refused to man "D" boat and Wilde went to
the starboard side.

I'll post my new thoughts next time (next week or so)

Thank you all for your comments!

Best Regards!

Max Nikulin

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Hello everybody.

Yes, apparently this is a 'hot potato'. One must, however, bear in mind that there are very few witnesses who actually say they witnessed an officer shooting himself. There are lots of people who say they 'were told' about it, or 'I believe he shot himself' or something to that effect. I think George Rheims said he witnessed this, and Eugene Daly, but his story seems to suggest he refers to the incident in and near boat No 14, the boat into which he helped the two Irish girls. It has been suggested he helped them into No 15, but his story doesn't match the starboard side at all.
Are there other witnesses who actually say they saw an officer shoot himself and/or others?
I might of course be wrong, but as far as I know, most of the alleged witnesses build the case on hearsay, which means that the whole shooting-theory might be incorrect. I have a feeling that what the 'hearsay'-witnesses refer to officer Lowe's shooting at boat 14, but I must emphasize that this is my personal theory and nothing else.

Best regards,

Peter

 

[James Hill]

did you hear that Murdochs family cleared him of the shooting charge ages ago.people like Eugene Daly may not have liked the crews performance but the crew were the biggest heros that night

 

[Bill Wormstedt]

Exactly how did Murdoch's family clear him of the shooting charge ages ago, James? If they did, I don't think it's been publicised that well.

 

[Inger Sheil]

I think James must be referring to the campaign for an apology run at the time of the Cameron movie's release.

The studio execs (not Cameron) finally issued a statement in Dalbeattie that no offense had been intended to the family of William Murdoch, and a presentation cheque for the Murdoch Memorial Fund was handed over. There was no apology as such, although some sections of the media interpreted it and reported it that way.

Based on the nature of the material regarding this alleged incident, it would be very difficult for anyone to either prove or disprove the identity or actions of any individual purported to have been involved. Eugene Daly, for example, did not name a specific officer in the incident he described.

James, if you're interested in learning more about what material is available on this subject, I suggest that you check out Bill Wormstedt's excellent site - he's been collecting reports for a few years now, and I'd venture to say there's no more comprehensive collation of the material relating to it either on or off line.

 

[Daniel Klistorner]

Inger,

Daniel Parks, a while back I remember wrote something about the suicide incident. I have not heard of or from Daniel for over a year. I never got to see his work though, so I have no idea whether it is more or less comprehensive than what Bill has put together. If anyone has read this or can comment, or Daniel if you're still around, please give us a shout!

Ing, I sent you an e-mail to you hotmail account (the one I pulled off ET). I hope you get it.

Regards,

Daniel.

 

[Inger Sheil]

G'day Daniel -

Was this the chap from New Zealand? Very pleasant bloke - I corresponded with him for a while, and he had some intriguing ideas. I didn't see his work either, and would be interested in knowing if he ever published or intends to publish.

I've responded to your email from my BT account

Let me know either here or on hotmail if you dont' receive it.

~ Ing

 

[Bill Wormstedt]

I did receive some e-mail from somebody in NZ, a year or so ago. He was offered some data I didn't have, if I recall correctly.

 

[Richard Coplen]

Should any of you have read the article on Eugene Daly witnessing an officer shooting two men and then himself in last month's Irish Titanic Historical Society Journal, then you will soon be of the opinion that it did happen. The argument put forward was very convincing and has left no doubt in my mind that it did indeed happen.

 

[Inger Sheil]

LoL! I've read the magazine, Richard (I also have an article published in the same issue of the White Star Journal) I found the piece extremely interesting, as were Senan's editorial observations on the nature of Daly's later statements to his family that he had witnessed a suicide. However, I still can't regard this as definitive, as it's a secondhand source recorded many years after the events Daly recalled. I'm not suggesting for a moment that either Daly or his family were lying (I don't believe they were), but memories and observations recalled after a long period has lapsed are notoriously unreliable. I regard the article as a very valuable contribution to the debate, but not conclusive evidence a suicide took place. Regretably, nothing in this account from Daly's family assists us in identifying the officer in question.

Senan has turned up some more interesting and perhaps very telling evidence on the question of an officer suicide, but it's for him to divulge this material in future issues of the WSJ!

 

[Tammy Saphiloff]

Hey Ing! Please *do* share this new information with us, b/c I...as you already know, am extremely interested in *all* things pertaining to Will Murdoch.