Did people rip apart fixtures/fittings and throw them overboard?

[Question_asker]

There's a few shots during the panic/mayhem in the 1997 movie that shows people throwing anything they can find overboard such as benches, chairs, etc presumably to give people something to hold on to.

I was wondering if there is much documentation/eyewitness accounts of this happening?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Some deck chairs might have been thrown overboard by different people in the mistaken belief that they could serve as rafts, but as has been discussed in another thread, I doubt very much if they would have served any practical purpose.

Why would anyone want to hold onto a bench or desk chair in those icy waters? If it was meant to help them remain afloat, their life jackets would have served that purpose far better, but neither it nor the bench would have protected the person from hypothermia. The other issue is that holding onto a piece of debris meant that the person was not swimming and so not going anywhere - thus minimizing the chances of rescue and maximising that of onset of hypothermia. A better option would have been to try to swim to the nearest lifeboat once hitting the water and hope that somone already on board would help them on board. Of course, given the circumstances towards the end of the Titanic sinking, even that was a forlorn hope but a few lucky ones managed and they definitely swam to their rescue.

 

[Basauri]

There's a few shots during the panic/mayhem in the 1997 movie that shows people throwing anything they can find overboard such as benches, chairs, etc presumably to give people something to hold on to.

I was wondering if there is much documentation/eyewitness accounts of this happening?

It's well known that the Chinese citizen Wing Sun Fong (signed in as Fang Lang on the Titanic) managed to survive on top of a door until Officer Lowe came back to rescue survivors. Not ideal but kept his internal organs outside the freezing water thus kept him alive.

Worth mentioning too that upon being brought to a lifeboat, he seemingly sprought back to life and started rowing for hours as if nothing had happened. Even racist Officer Lowe, who had initially been disappointed to rescue a "jap" (sic), came to admire his vitality and drive.

Then there's also the story of 1st Class barber Augustus (Gus) Weikman who, once in the water, saw a cluster of about one dozen deck chairs tied together and he climbed aboard. This sort of raft was small and still left his legs inside the water but there's a strong chance it could have worked out for him, since at least his internal organs were above the freezing water.

As it happens though, he then spotted a lifeboat at maybe 600m, decided to paddle in that direction and eventually succeeded in making it aboard. I'd still qualify the raft as very helpful however, for all reasons mentioned above. Who knows if he'd have been able to make it to the boat without it.

There's a short scene in the movie A Night to Remember where we see a crew member tying some deckchairs together. I believe it's a reference to this event.

 

[Basauri]

Some deck chairs might have been thrown overboard by different people in the mistaken belief that they could serve as rafts, but as has been discussed in another thread, I doubt very much if they would have served any practical purpose.

Why would anyone want to hold onto a bench or desk chair in those icy waters? If it was meant to help them remain afloat, their life jackets would have served that purpose far better, but neither it nor the bench would have protected the person from hypothermia. The other issue is that holding onto a piece of debris meant that the person was not swimming and so not going anywhere - thus minimizing the chances of rescue and maximising that of onset of hypothermia. A better option would have been to try to swim to the nearest lifeboat once hitting the water and hope that somone already on board would help them on board. Of course, given the circumstances towards the end of the Titanic sinking, even that was a forlorn hope but a few lucky ones managed and they definitely swam to their rescue.

A cluster of deckchairs tied together served 1st Class barber Augustus H. Weikman well though. Don't be so dismissive

By climbing aboard he got his main body out of the water, which is the main thing. And still aboard those chairs, he then managed to paddle to the nearest lifeboat ~600m away. Better than nothing, in my opinion.

Maybe some more people would have made it had they had at hand some floating structure that kept their internal organs above the waterline.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

It's well known that the Chinese citizen Wing Sun Fong (signed in as Fang Lang on the Titanic) managed to survive on top of a door until Officer Lowe came back to rescue survivors. Not ideal but kept his internal organs outside the freezing water thus kept him alive

There were some reports that an Oriental man (first erroneously described as 'Japanese' in ANTR) had tied himself to a door before he was rescued by a lifeboat. There is no definitive proof that it was that way or even that it was "Fang Lang"; being perched on top of a door might have helped for a few additional minutes, it would not have made much difference after a while.

Don't be so dismissive.

I happen to be a retired doctor and have done some work about hypothermia related effects. So, I know very well what I am talking about. Try not to be patronizing.

Then there's also the story of 1st Class barber Augustus (Gus) Weikman who, once in the water, saw a cluster of about one dozen deck chairs tied together and he climbed aboard. This sort of raft was small and still left his legs inside the water but there's a strong chance it could have worked out for him, since at least his internal organs were above the freezing water.

As it happens though, he then spotted a lifeboat at maybe 600m, decided to paddle in that direction and eventually succeeded in making it aboard. I'd still qualify the raft as very helpful however, for all reasons mentioned above. Who knows if he'd have been able to make it to the boat without it.

Weikmann said that he saw a coil of ropes ahead of him soon after he jumped into the water; he never claimed that he had "tied a cluster of deck cahirs together"; where would anybody find the necessary time and tools to do that under those circumstances? In any case, it has already been discussed how a deck chair would be next to useless to survive under those conditions. He swam to the coil of rope and tried climbing on board but found that inactivity made the cold feeling worse so he slid back in and continueed swimming till he reached Collapsible A and was hauled on board. I am not sure where you found that "600m" information from but that's over third of a mile and there is no way Weikmann could have swum that far in icy waters. A lot of survivors greatly exaggerated the times and distances that they had spent swimming before reaching lifeboats.

As to keeping "internal organs above the water", it would have heped very little. Those wearing life vests had at least part of their torsos above water but that did not stop them from slipping into unconsciousness and dying. Those on board the waterlogged Collapsible A were knee deep in water and even there a few died; those who survived with frostbite were helped by their shared body warmth to some extent. As it was, they were lucky that Lowe found them when he did.

 

[Thomas Krom]

There is no definitive proof that it was that way or even that it was "Fang Lang"; being perched on top of a door might have helped for a few additional minutes, it would not have made much difference after a while.

There is evidence from family stories however. Back in 2017 a cousin of Tom Fong (Fang Lang/Fong Wing Sun his son) named Henry Chiu, told that Fang Lang/Fong Wing Sun told him in Mandrin during a dinner party:

"The ship I was on crashed into an ice mountain. He said it was a huge ship, a very big ship. And that he saved himself by grabbing on debris."

Henry said he was 100% sure that was what he told him then. If indeed accurate it would make likely make Fang Lang/Fong Wing Sun was the man saved by fifth officer Lowe. In 2017 Tom Fong met up with the grandson of fifth officer Lowe, John Lowe, and even had a heartfelt conversation with one another.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I also believe that the man most likely saved by Lowe and his crew was "Fang Lang". ANTR said that he was Japanese, but AFAIK the only Japanese man on board the Titanic was Masabumi Hosono, who as we all know, was saved on Lifeboat #10.

But I do not believe that Fang Lang, Weikmann or anyone else would have lasted more than 25 minutes by hanging on to debris. In some ways, that carried a higher risk of hypothermia and unconsciousness due to inactivity. Swimming would have bought them perhaps 5 to 7 more minutes due to increased circulation.

 

[Sarah S]

I am a bit surprised to read that clinging unto debris does not help staying alive in freezing water. I assumed getting ones body out of the water was a logical decision for anyone in that situation. I know that movies aren’t proof for anything. But for example, in the Cameron movie, Rose survived because her entire body was on that door, meanwhile Jack had half of his body in the water and therefore did not make it. Even to this day fans make fun of the writing, by saying there was room for Jack on that door too so he didn’t „need“ to die.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I am a bit surprised to read that clinging unto debris does not help staying alive in freezing water. I assumed getting ones body out of the water was a logical decision for anyone in that situation.

IF one was able to keep their body out of the freezing water it most certainly would have helped, but you have to ask yourself how a potential survivor could have done it that night. Deck chairs would float yes, but can you imagine even a strong man being able to tie them togther into an effective raft? How and what with? Even if he had found some rope, tying heavy chairs together when pressed for time would be very difficult. He would then have had the problem of tossing the unwieldy contraption into the sea and jumping after it. Either way, there was the risk of it coming apart and the man would have got thoroughly soaked; also getting on to and remaining on it even on a calm, flat sea would be a really hard task. Also, with deck chair(s) water would keep seeping thorugh the crevices and keeping it stable and avoid further soaking would be next to impossible. The same problem would be there with almost any debris large enough to support a human being. As for doors, IF 'Fang Lang' found one, it was very likely a broken one lying around; a ship's door is not going to be something that one could yank out that easily.

But the biggest issue would be that the man would be already soaked before getting on to any makeshift raft and then struggle to remain dry on his own. Clinging on to something would mean he was not swimming, and being inactive in sub-zero waters accelerates onset of hypothermia and drifing into stupor. The role of shared body heat among survivors of Collapsibles B & A is not often discussed but IMO is quite important.

But for example, in the Cameron movie, Rose survived because her entire body was on that door, meanwhile Jack had half of his body in the water and therefore did not make it. Even to this day fans make fun of the writing, by saying there was room for Jack on that door too so he didn’t „need“ to die.

That was a movie. A lot of things happen in those that would not be remotely possible in real life.

 

[marina_irc]

I am a bit surprised to read that clinging unto debris does not help staying alive in freezing water. I assumed getting ones body out of the water was a logical decision for anyone in that situation. I know that movies aren’t proof for anything. But for example, in the Cameron movie, Rose survived because her entire body was on that door, meanwhile Jack had half of his body in the water and therefore did not make it. Even to this day fans make fun of the writing, by saying there was room for Jack on that door too so he didn’t „need“ to die.

You’re facing two competing means of heat transfer. One is conductive cooling in the water, which has quite literally one thousand times the enthalpy per unit mass as air. It is going to take your body down to its temperature fairly quickly.

In the air you are just as worse off. You are facing convective cooling. The air blowing across your body basically constantly refreshes the conductive capacity of the heat exchange on your skin.

The water is pitiless in these circumstances. I have been working on an ice sheet in Alaska when it broke under me and knew well keeping my cool and remaining balanced was the only way to not instantly perish—that’s the kind of water we’re talking about. Even this time of year I just went swimming in the Strait of Juan de Fuca in 11C water. Despite the high air temperatures the chill was such that after about five alternating five - ten minute swims and 10 minute warmup periods on the beach, the lack of a wet suit meant that my legs held a strange unnatural coolness for a good 30 minutes until I got back to the hotel and took a hot shower—the fat in my thighs having cooled below normal temperature. That was in 32C air….

IF you were wearing clothes that retained heat when wet AND you were completely out of the water, debris would work. They would be large pieces, however.

My belief is that Fang Lang survived on a large wooden door from the ship’s interior or another large flat piece of wood he thought was a door, and became the last survivor recovered outright from the water because he was wearing just the right clothes, found just the right piece of debris, and was just the right body type to secure himself completely that night.

He won a ruthless lottery of statistics which suggested the most likely number of men to survive that way was zero, but there was a small chance of one, and he happened to luck out and be that one.

 

[Basauri]

There were some reports that an Oriental man (first erroneously described as 'Japanese' in ANTR) had tied himself to a door before he was rescued by a lifeboat. There is no definitive proof that it was that way or even that it was "Fang Lang"; being perched on top of a door might have helped for a few additional minutes, it would not have made much difference after a while.


I happen to be a retired doctor and have done some work about hypothermia related effects. So, I know very well what I am talking about. Try not to be patronizing.


Weikmann said that he saw a coil of ropes ahead of him soon after he jumped into the water; he never claimed that he had "tied a cluster of deck cahirs together"; where would anybody find the necessary time and tools to do that under those circumstances? In any case, it has already been discussed how a deck chair would be next to useless to survive under those conditions. He swam to the coil of rope and tried climbing on board but found that inactivity made the cold feeling worse so he slid back in and continueed swimming till he reached Collapsible A and was hauled on board. I am not sure where you found that "600m" information from but that's over third of a mile and there is no way Weikmann could have swum that far in icy waters. A lot of survivors greatly exaggerated the times and distances that they had spent swimming before reaching lifeboats.

As to keeping "internal organs above the water", it would have heped very little. Those wearing life vests had at least part of their torsos above water but that did not stop them from slipping into unconsciousness and dying. Those on board the waterlogged Collapsible A were knee deep in water and even there a few died; those who survived with frostbite were helped by their shared body warmth to some extent. As it was, they were lucky that Lowe found them when he did.

It is amazing how overtly confident you sound, for a person who has such a weak grasp on facts. That's how myths and lies about Titanic perpetuate, I suppose.

From Weikman's affidavit at the United States Senate Inquiry. Day 15. APRIL 24, 1912 (bold font is mine):

"I think the boilers blew up about in the middle of the ship. The explosion blew me along with a wall of water toward the dark object I was swimming to, which proved to be a bundle of deck chairs, which I managed to climb on. While on the chairs I heard terrible groans and cries coming from people in the water. "

"Did you see the ship go down? I mean the Titanic. Yes; I was afloat on chairs about 100 feet away, looking toward the ship. I seen her sink."

"Did you feel any suction? No; but there was some waves come toward me caused by the ship going own, and not enough to knock me off of the chairs."

I found this online after a 30s search. I'm away from home and don't have any sources at hand - nor time to look for them - about his paddling towards collapsible A, but feel free to search them yourself if you wish to. He conceded interviews to newspapers and there were also other people in the lifeboat who witnessed this.

As most people know, having been fully submerged in freezing water previously that night, severely reduced the chance of survival of those who ended up reaching collapsible A. They were dying left and right, even after climbing aboard. Being able to stay afloat those chairs until reaching the boat, more than likely saved Weikman's life that night, if not undoubtedly.

And I wasn't being patronising. I was just being friendly and extremely polite, given how blatantly incorrect your statements were.

Having to resort to the "argument from authority" (argumentum ab auctoritate) fallacy in order to try and win an argument is incredibly unhelpful, besides pretentious. It's also particularly absurd when you happen to ignore the background of the people you're talking to.

And for someone who appeals to his medical background so often, you seem to lack a very scientific approach to the discovery of the truth. For reasons that escape me, you immediately presumed that you knew better than me and proceeded to instantly negate my statements without bothering to verify them first.

Also, your possible medical experience has very little relevance here; only facts matter.

Most of what we know today about the effects of hypothermia on the human body anyway we learnt it from highly unethical experiments performed on prisioners 80+ years ago, during WW2. If you happen to be privvy to some secret data so far unknown to the rest of the scientific community, I'd urge you to make it public now, for the benefit of humankind.

Last, since you already accused me of being patronising towards you anyway, I thought I'd go ahead now and encourage you to work a little on your impulsivity, among other things.

 

[Mark Baber]

Moderator's hat on:

Focus on the subject, not one another.

Moderator's hat off.

 

[Basauri]

There were some reports that an Oriental man (first erroneously described as 'Japanese' in ANTR) had tied himself to a door before he was rescued by a lifeboat. There is no definitive proof that it was that way or even that it was "Fang Lang"; being perched on top of a door might have helped for a few additional minutes, it would not have made much difference after a while.

Replying again because it just hit me that I forgot to address your 1st point point earlier.

What do you mean there were "some reports"? It's a well established fact that Officer Lowe recued a Chinese man clinging on a wooden door (a few accounts called it a board instead) when he eventually went back looking for survivors.

No serious source has ever claimed he was tied to a door, only that he was balancing his body on it. The reason why he managed to stay alive until he was rescued. No body heat from other people to speak for either lol.

Lowe initially called him a "jap" purely out of prejudice and the rampant anti-Japanese sentiment of the time, but there's no doubt he was Chinese instead. I'm surprised you didn't know this; perhaps you'd like to educate yourself next time, before questioning others.

In fact, Officer Lowe rescued 4 survivors that night:

- William Fisher Hoyt, a very large 43 years old American businessman who was held up by his lifejacket alone. Took all the crew strength to lift him onboard. His very high BMI would have helped him survive longer than most, as his body fat insulated his core. He nevertheless died shortly after being rescued.

- Steward Harold Philimore, a 23 year old saloon steward who also managed to climb aboard some floating wreckage. He survived.

- Fang Lang, the 18 years old Chinese citizen who balanced his body on a door, as mentioned earlier. He famously survived.

- The identity of the fourth survivor is unclear. A possible candidate is Giuseppe Portaluppi, a 30-year-old Italian-American Second class passenger who survived by holding on to an icefloe. Although facts in his account don't tally with being rescued by Lowe, it's still remarkable that he also survived thanks to a floating structure.

Not one person held up by their life jacket alone survived for long. Only those who climbed aboard something did. All this points at the fact that being able to maintain the core body outside the water undoubtedly helped. As it's logical.

Also, your statement that life jackets kept the main internal organs above water is obviously factually incorrect too. Have you ever seen a lifejacket in use?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Have you ever seen a lifejacket in use?

I don't feel obligated to answer such stupidity but for the record, yes. Many times and I have donned them too while whitewater rafting in the US and Australia. Also, I am a retired scuba diver with over 600 dives to my credit and so know a bit about buoyancy control.