Dining Room Windows


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Matt Endacott

Guest
Hi,
Recently i watched the film Titanic 3D - Ghosts of the Abyss in Sydney, Australia and found the numerous scenes of ONE single pane of stained glass in the First Class Dining Room very interesting. Not only is the LAST FULLY intact window in the whole Dining Room, it is in remarkable condition, not a single crack. I wish to hear your thoughts on this matter, as i know many disagree with removing objects from the wreck, but i really feel this window should be brought to the surface. For fun, Cameron's team sent their small robot into the Dining Saloon in-front of the window, whilst using a powerful light to shine from the outside, illuminating the glass and shining into the room. The site of this single Dining Room window shining again, for the first time in 91years was very touching.
What are your thoughts on bringing it up? Also, does anyone know where i can find a pattern of these windows or photos?
Regards,
Matt Endacott
Australia
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Matt, the question of bringing the thing up may well be a very moot point. I don't think any sort of removal would be very easy. Since it's at 12,500 feet with the rest of the wreck, it's not as if you can just send a couple of guys down to unscrew the thing and pull it out of the frame, box it up, and send it on to it's new home.
 
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Jake Angus

Guest
I say leave it. I still that maintain bringing anything up from the wreck site/debris field is a violation of those who lost their lives during (and after) the sinking.

I do believe in the King Tut curse syndrome, which simply stated means you 'rob' a sacred site for profit and you and your family are cursed.

I was once at a dinner party (back when people asked me! hah hah) and I was the only person at the dinner table who had a clear view of a coin that was retrieved from the disaster site, then mounted on a plaque. It was in the host's bedroom. I immediately verified what it was w/the host, and I gently inquired if he didn't think it bad luck to have something like that in his home? I'd just love to tell you all he was struck dead before my eyes to give this tale a sensational ending, but the point is - leave artifacts of disasters where they are.
 
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Matt Endacott

Guest
Hey,
Jake, at first i too thought it be best to keep it there, for it is a graveyard of 1,500people! But then i did a little bit of research and TITANIC is one of the ONLY disaster sites that hasn't been totally raided.
The Hindenburg - Although there are no official reports on what happened to the wreckage it was surely scrapped. It too was a gravesite.
The USS West Virginia - A gravesite of many Americans in Pearl Harbor, raised from the harbor floor & again fitted out & set to sea.
HMAS Kuttabul - Sydney Harbour. Raised after the attack in WW2 and fitted out before serving as a City - Manly Ferry for several years! 25people died aboard it.
And really, why leave such a beautiful piece of history under the ocean to fade away when it can be displayed to the public to help understand the true beauty of TITANIC, as today there is little left of her original fittings, and clearly this window wasn't meant to sit on the ocean floor for 91years. In all respect to the men, women & children lost on that night, i still think it should be raised.
 
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Jake Angus

Guest
The men, women and children can't speak for themselves. I wouldn't do it, but then wreck salvaging isn't my career.

Say, were the dining room windows illuminated from within at night? If they weren't, they would've ended up looking like double rows of big black holes, right?
 
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Brian R Peterson

Guest
Hi Matt!

I can relate to your nostalgic point of view of conserving as much as we can of the Titanic, especially one of the beautiful stained glass windows of the First Class Dining Saloon however, have you ever tried to remove a late 19th early 20th century stained glass window from its frame in a house? I have and can tell you it takes the labor of several people and hours depending on the size of the window, and is no cake walk to see it come out flat and undamaged.

Picture this procedure at 12,500 feet using only robots who have no sense of feeling when it comes to applying pressure and grip and with the water current and 91 years of aging acting against you - its a recipe for disaster.

The window should be left to stand, it has survived the sinking and remained intact on the bottom for 91 years, this alone sends a more powerful image than it could in a museum.

Best Regards,

Brian
 
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Matt Endacott

Guest
i agree it sends a powerful image from surviving the sinking & remaining intact on the ocean floor for 91years but still, HOW many people will actually see it first hand at the bottom of the Atlantic? If placed on display at a public museum it could be viewed by THOUSANDS of people & provide a different view on the wreck of the Titanic. If it is left there for another 91years it will surely break. If not from age then as the rusting decks of the ship fall onto each other under pressure. Do we really want in 91years for people to look back on the Titanic and see it as a twisted pile of rubble in the middle of the ocean, with NO evidence on the surface of it's former beauty? This window, i feel is much more significant than recovered plates & portholes, which at present are on display in museums. Really, can anyone state they have seen a completely INTACT First Class fitting from the Titanic? Sure, right now in 2003 we KNOW that many of Titanic's elegant fittings are with her at the bottom, but 91years on, will they still be in such condition? Or will we leave a heap of twisted iron & broken plates for future generations. This window is not only significant as being the LAST Dining Saloon window remaining, but also as it would be one of the only stained glass windows recovered from a disaster, EVER! Can you think of a completely recovered window from any other disaster in history, let-alone one with such beauty?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>I do believe in the King Tut curse syndrome, which simply stated means you 'rob' a sacred site for profit and you and your family are cursed. <<

Well, considering that;

a)King Tut's curse is contrived media nonsense,

b)That there was no death or misfortune above and beyond the statistical norm for those involved in excavating King Tut's tomb,

c)That there has also been no death or misfortune above and beyond the statistical norm for those involved in slavage and recovery for the RMS Titanic and
d)No death or misfortune above and beyond the statistical norms for those involved in the salvage of any other shipwreck on the planet (The usual industrial accidents associated with diving notwithstanding)

I'd like to see how anyone can logically come to a conclusion like that.
 
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Brian R Peterson

Guest
Hi Matt!

While I certainly shudder at the thought of that window being crushed, which however dreadful an event to picture is inevitable - but as I stated before, any attempt to remove it from the ship itself would more than likely destroy it.

Best Regards,

Brian
 
Dec 4, 2000
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On the subject of Egyptians...as I understand their belief system, the soul of a dead person was kept alive as as long as the memory of that person remained alive. So, they built statues and things for that purpose.

In a very real sense, the victims of Titanic were being forgotten despite ANTR. The discovery of the ship...then Camerons film...and now the displays of artifacts are bringing the lives of Titanic's passengers and crews back into living memory. I fear that leaving wreckage in situ simply allows it and the memories of the people to disappear into abyss of time.

So, I favor the recovery of items that fire the imagination of the current generation to learn and remember those who have gone before.

-- David G. Brown
 
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Matt Endacott

Guest
Hey David,
I totally agree.
If the wreck of the Titanic was never found, and Cameron hadn't made the movie than TITANIC would surely start to drift into the abyss.
We have to remember, whilst there is MANY Titanic historians, without help from the rest of the world (eg. exhibits, moves ect.) Titanic would be a small interest in the minds of few. BUT with it's discovery & the movie, it has revealed to the world, the true story behind that night that has inspired thousands. People are now realising the true value of a simple bracelet from the wreck and i myself have even seen someone cry over several artifacts. If it not for these items to be brought to the surface, the public would have no idea about the stories of love, terror, beauty & death that come from Titanic.
 

Lee Gilliland

Member
Feb 14, 2003
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The debate about should we/shouldn't we will go on forever, but I think a much better idea in this case would be the recreation of the window - as Brian and Michael both point out, removing it from the ship it a tad difficult and would probably result in the destruction of the very thing you want to save.
 
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Matt Endacott

Guest
hey lee,

i agree the debate will go on forever, yet the point about recreating the window i find useless.
The point for raising the window is to show the world that that window WAS in the 1st Class Dining Room, it stayed intact during the sinking & 91 years after it is STILL in the same condition. The window is proof of the statement. It one was to make a copy of it, it would be a cheap imitation of the original window, taking the effect of the real window away. People dont want to see things that LOOK LIKE, they want to see the ACTUAL thing if it's possible!
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>removing it from the ship it a tad difficult and would probably result in the destruction of the very thing you want to save.<<

Lee...it could do a lot worse then that. Given the on-going deterioration of the superstructure, an attempt to remove the thing may well bring several hundred tons of metal down on top of whoever is operating the submersible trying to do the job.

Paranoid?

Maybe.

But considering how this could really, really really ruin your day, would you be willing to risk it?
smoke.gif
 
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Brian R Peterson

Guest
Hi Michael!

An excellent point, and one I overlooked

Best Regards,

Brian
 
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Jake Angus

Guest
...and the dining room windows? Were they illuminated at night by the mummy from King Tut's tomb....... or just regular incandescent lights???? Hee Hee
 
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Brian R Peterson

Guest
Shame on you Jake, next you'll ask us if its actually the Olympic down there....
mad.gif


Best Regards,

Brian
 
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Jake Angus

Guest
Brian, your colour rendering of the First Class Stateroom is the wallpaper on my computer monitor. Ooh, I imagine how it must have been to lay in bed at night before retiring, reading and looking at that intricately carved wood!

Of course, I'd still be wondering if the dining room windows were illuminated from within at night! ;`)
 
Oct 12, 2004
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I offer a comparison from present day to sort of illustrate what the people themselves might want. Though similar and not similar at the same time, we can look to the world trade center survivors and victims families as a clue as to what is and is not appropriate. I believe the majority of the families are for preserving and displaying relevant artifacts from the WTC site in interest of telling the story. Further, the site itself being marked is the true importance. It is to say "people died here and we should remember that". And they did not say " Lets leave all the rubble untouched as commemoration". Just a comparison.
 
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Matt Endacott

Guest
Also, the World Trade Center is in the process of being cleared away & new foundations for other buildings are being laid. This dosn't mean they are destroying a sacred site, but rather moving it to a more appropriate place where access to items of interest are easier to those who wish to see them. I feel this is the same as the Titanic. Even if we raised the whole ship and set it in a museum in New York we wouldn't be destroying it, rather commemorating it even more. It would be in a place where the public can really understand what actually happened in her rooms & on her decks. For all we know, if technology had been better in 1912 it probably would have been raised as you see their earlier plans to do so.
Leaving it there to fade into history i see disrespectful to those who were down there. We have the chance to go down and recover as much of the items as possible for closer examination and also unlock stories from the lost passengers. I say take the opportunity before it's too late, and bring much of the Titanic as possible, up to the surface.
 

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