Dining saloon

i recently read in diane preston's new book that the second floor of the grand dining saloon was used almost as an a'la carte restaurant while the first floor served a more restricted ( but still plentiful) menu. i have never heard of this before i read this in the new book. has anyone else heard of this from any other sources? maybe Cunard was attempting to provide a little more luxury on the Lusitania in her later years?

Thanks,

Matt
 
Perhaps it was same on Mauretania- the Dining room (1st Class) on the Lusitania and Mauretania seemed to have the same general design, although totally differnt decor- but perhaps the functions held within were the same?

regards

Tarn Stephanos
 
Does she offer any footnotes or evidence for this? Or is it just an assertion?

I have seen hundreds of Lusitania documents and menus and I have never heard of the balcony being used as an a la carte restaurant. It was the preferred area to sit, but still served from the standard First Class Menu and without special charges or reduction in the cost of passage.

Bill Sauder
 
Bill,

Let me check out the book and I'll come back with more. I didn't notice any footnotes or references for this idea, I gather that she seems to have gotten that impression from statements of survivors; I have never heard of this either, and I thought it was very odd.

Thanks,

Matt
 
Hello,
Just dropped in and found this to be a very interesting subject. I decided to do a little searching myself, as I remembered reading somewhere that the upper saloon was used for this purpose.
In Mark D. Warren's "The Cunard Turbine-Driven Quadruple-Screw Atlantic Liner Mauretania" he states in his introductory essay that "The main floor of the Dining Saloon on the Upper Deck, which was the room most ornately decorated, included a large, richly carved buffet. The less ornate second floor on the Shelter Deck was often used as an a la carte restaurant..." I hope this helps a little. I would assume that in order to keep up with the Germans' Ritz-Carlton restaurants on the Amerika and the Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria, Cunard would have to have offered an a la carte option on the Maury and the Lucy. I will continue to search through my other resources in hopes that I'll find something else perhaps a little more detailed.

~Kevin Spaans

PS- I would have thought that the Verandah Cafe might have also been an a la carte option as well, but looking at the deck plans and photographs it seems a little too far from a galley for that purpose and the tables also look too small for a large dinner meal. Perhaps the bar in the corridor acted as a kitchen for lunch?
 
Kevin,

Thanks for that imput, it does help me to clear things up a bit.

Bill,

This is the actual quote from the book.

" In the double-tiered first-class dining room, the food was luxurious, even sumptuos, with mounds of glistening caviar, served with wafer-thin slivers of toast and finely minced hard-boiled eggs, and dishes of juicy oysters nestling on beds of crushed ice. Passenegers could choose to dine off the table d'hote in the marble-columned restaurant or a'la carte in the elegant and intimate salon overhead." This is found on page 140 in Diana Preston's new book, Lusitania, an Epic Tragedy. I could find no foot notes or other quotes linking this to a passenger account or to another source.

Thanks,

Matt
 
Matt and Kevin:

Thanks for relaying the quotes from these books, but in perfect candor, I don't think either author (Warren or Preston) really looked into the matter. They simply heard a rumor and repeated it because it was believable. In order to settle the matter, somebody who's making the claim that the upper level of the dining room was in reality an a la carte restaurant has to present evidence from a primary source -- something published/written by Cunard at that time that establishes the presence of an a la carte restaurant. Something I have yet to see after thirty years of research.

Positive evidence would include: an a la carte menu, waiter's pad, receipts, memo, or receipt of ticket deduction, passenger applications to dine in such an establishment, mention of it in correspondence, an advertisement in any of the company's literature or deck plans for such a restaurant, reference to an outside restaurant staff such as the one on Titanic, internal memoranda for its installation, administration, supply, operation, or repair.

I can only repeat that I have seen hundreds and hundreds of original documents for Lusitania and have never seen even a hint that a separate a la carte restaurant existed. I realize that the lack of such a restaurant put the Lusitania at a disadvantage vis a vis the competition and so did Cunard in 1912. To prove that Cunard realized this, memos survive that explore the possibility of converting the Verandah Cafe on Lusitania and Mauretania into gyms, but the scheme was rejected. I suspect that if Lusitania were at least considered for an a la carte restaurant, this scheme too was probably rejected for the following reasons:

Galley Capacity: The main galley was probably too small to serve two independent restaurants (fixed menu on Upper Deck and a la carte on the Balcony) plus second class aft. Get out your Olympic Shipbuilders and compare the floor space between the Olympic's Restaurant and Galley on B Deck -- the two rooms are almost the same size. Lusitania's galley would require at least a 25 to 50% size increase to handle the more elaborate menus.

Serving Pantries: These are the rooms in which the orders are assembled by the waiters for presentation to the diners and dirty dishes taken away and cleaned after the meal. Compare again the size of Lusitania's pantries to Titanic's. Lusitania's small cul-de-sacs must have been a nightmare for the stewards to move in and out of and created major delays in serving time. Premium service out of these little closets would have been impossible and lead to passenger complaints.

Profitability. The seating capacity of the dining balcony was probably too small to justify the cost of its installation and operation.

Bad Will: It is not widely known, but a la carte restaurants were resented by the non-diners in first class. An internal memorandum that discusses the design of the Queen Mary in the 1920s questions the wisdom of such an establishment on the new ship since the presence of a "first-class, first-class dining room" irked many passengers who were paying premium ticket prices for "ordinary" first-class food.

As a footnote, the Preston description of the Dining Rooms strikes me as too facile to be accurate. My research into food presentation for Cunard suggests that the company was willing to be generous with the quality and quantity of foods offered first class but NEVER to the point of wasteful extravagance. "Generous supply of Caviar on demand" -- yes. Definitely. "Mounds of caviar" just for the empty show -- no. Her mention of "dishes of juicy oysters nestling on beds of crushed ice" shows a 21st century assumption that ice was available in infinite supply. In fact, the ice making capacity for the machinery on Lusitania was pitiful by today's standards. Oysters were kept in a cold locker and served on a chilled plate. There just wasn't enough ice onboard for that kind of show.

Preston gives her game away when she gets to "marble-columned restaurant." Alas, the pillars were carved wood painted in plain white paint. More research and fewer travelog cliches would have been welcome.

If I have come down overly hard of Diane, its simply because writers get carried away and their assumptions take on a life of their own.

Only now, fifty years after "A Night to Remember" came out can we publicly say that Walter Lord made an innocent goof when he talks about having to sand the name TITANIC off the surviving lifeboats. The lifeboat names were, of course, brass plaques, but just 10 years ago to suggest that Lord was wrong about something was considered a high-heresy. Heated words inevitably followed and the better-class of researchers just kept their mouths shut.

I expect modern authors to be more diligent in their research since they are willing to accept a great deal of money for their books.

But more important, silly: simple errors like these are a vote of "no confidence" against the author. Every researcher makes mistakes and authors have the liability of seeing them committed to eternity because they are printed. Those errors can be most easily forgiven when they are a rare thing in a book. When I see them in clusters, however, they rase the question "if these simple facts are wrong, what else is?"

Bill Sauder
 
Hi!

I think this fits roughly into this thread, part of Cunard’s dining room specifications. It's from a general booklet, 'New Fast Steamers, 367 & 735 Interior Decoration.' I don’t know if it’s for Lusitania or her sister, as their saloons were notably different, but I guess Lusitania:

‘Floor to be one inch parquet of approved design laid with solution.
The sides of the saloon to be panelled in French polished hard wood to be approved by the company, the panelling to be neatly moulded and broken by ornamental pilasters and carved spand rails. The pillars to be cased in the same hard wood and to be suitable moulded and fluted with carved caps and carved dado mouldings. The sideboards and dinner wagons to be designed to form a feature at the end of the saloon and the doors to be panelled in accord with the scheme of decoration and the architraves to be formed of pilasters with panelled dados and wrot shafts and caps. The ceiling to be panelled and moulded in best pine to accord and the beams to be cased and neatly moulded, the ceilings to be painted five coasts of best oil colour and finished an ivory white flat with lines of best English gold on panels and beam mouldings...
Sideboards, dinner wagons, etcetera, to be fitted for silver cutlery glass and china as designed.’

I’d welcome any correction as to the ship it fits.

By the way, I seem to recall mention of the ‘inferiority complex’ of passengers when an á la Carte restaurant was fitted in first class, in relation to notes on the Aquitania while she was building as well. I’ll try and find the source.

Best regards,

Mark.
 
Mr Sauder,

You make some very good and educated comments and I feel that you are almost indefinatly correct. The upper saloon, from looking at photos, seems to have a more intimate placement of five chairs around a round table, while the lower saloon has an assortment of settings. Perhaps the upper saloon was just the more desirable to dine as opposed to being a separate a la catre restaurant. I wouldn't think that a passenger traveling in one of the En Suite staterooms would be too pleased if they were placed at one of the long fourteen seating tables on the port and starboard side of the lower floor (that is, of course, if they were not seated at the Captain's Table).
I would like to thank-you as well for telling us about the Verandah Cafe issue. I had never heard this before and am quite glad they decided against it. I fell the VC is one of the most charming rooms on the Maury and Lucy and it may have been quite a loss had they decided to fill it with mechanical horses and stationary bicycles.

Thank-you for the interesting information, it does raise questions about the purpose of such a restaurant and whether the First Class passengers should be sub-classified by dining facility, for they are paying a fairly hefty price already.

~Kevin Spaans
 
Hi Mark

Thanks for your quote from the Decorative Specification book. Sorry for the delay, I had put this thread aside to answer later and it just slipped my mind.

I looked at your quote and frankly, it's so generic it could really fit either Lusitania or Mauretania. "French polished hardwood" points in the direction of Mauretania, but keep in mind that the white enamel finish of Lusitania's dining room was selected very late in the design as a cost-control measure by her architect.

Kevin:

Thanks for your kind words. I know that Leonard Peskett (Cunard's naval architect) was not much in favor of gymnasia on the upper decks (hence Aquitania's below, next to the pool).

I can only assume that without a pool, the gym would only be a "half measure" and the board of directors decided to give the room a face lift for about 500 pounds for new furniture, trellis work, plants and sliding doors.

If memory serves me right, at the same meeting, Cunard decided to pony up another 500 pounds and give third class sheets to sleep on. Yes, they only had blankets up to 1913.

Bill Sauder
 
Hi Bill!

Thanks for your reply. There's more stuff in that book so I'll try and find something to point to a more definite ship identity. It may be a load of general descritions for both ships, as the date was, I believe, 1905 or 1906.

I was looking into the Aquitania and there is far better material for anyone researching her interiors. One of these is the enormous number of spaces whose decoration was well over budget. I think the papers there are also slightly more detailed as they deal with one ship and not two. Still, some pretty major mistakes were made during her outfitting. As a side note, I am still hoping that someone will do a lavish Aquitania set of volumes. I am annoying the bank manager by starting collecting Braynard's Leviathan volumes, so if any Aquitania works come out I hope that they are cheap.
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Best regards,

Mark.
 
Hi Bill,

Thanks very much for the reply! It is quite interesting to hear of the circumstances surrounding this room and other issues on board the liner post-Olympic/Titanic (The Third Class blanket matter is news to me!).

Thanks again and all the best,
Kevin Spaans
 
Needed: One dessert spoon which would be typical of the pattern used on the Lusy in 1915. Knowing nothing about who supplied her cutlery and linens and china patterns, I am at a loss. I need the spoon for Barbara Anderson. She said hers had Lusitania written on it and the torpedo hit while she was on the upper tier after lunch in the diningroom. She remembered peering through the railing at the confusion below and carrying the spoon on deck. It was saved as a memento for many years at her grandmother's house and she has often said how dearly she would like it back. Don't know where her spoon is now but surely I might get a duplicate. Help! Am also looking for postcards of Lusy's dining room and any info on china and silver patterns aboard.
 
Shelley:

As for the First Class China pattern used on the Lusitania in 1907 at time of entry in to service - attached is a image of a commerative Lusitania Launch Plate, this plate was given to various dignitaties at the launch of the Lusitania on June 7, 1906.

This plate is from the first class china service used on the Lusitania and Mauretania (without the image of course) This is a 9" diameter china plate by Mintons with the color portrait of the Lusitania passing the Sandy Hook Lightship, in the center it is surrounded by a frame of pastel colored arabesques and flowers all topped with the Cunard Logo. This china (item) was commissioned for her maiden voyage.

The same china was used on the Mauretania and there is also a Commerative Launch plate for her.

Most of her other service china if I remember correctly was of a Blue floral pattern with the Cunard Logo in the center of the Plate. (Image to follow in next message.)

I haven't had time to find the images of the Silverware as of yet.

Shelly did you take any photographs of the Charles Chaffee Collection at the various Titanic International Conventions we have been at? As I will see if I have any detailed images other then these here from my personel collection.

As for a postcard of the Lusitania's dining room I don't currently have one in the collection I have many of a lot of the other public rooms but not the main dinning room. Do you need a postcard our will a scan from one of my many original Cunard "Lusitania" Brochure's do the trick.

S. Anderson Collection
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