Does anybody know who these people are #2


Andrew Maheux

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I have started a new thread on this topic and I have come up with more "finds"

Can anyone help me identify these people?

Max Frolicher recalled " One of the GENTLEMEN had some stimulants with him, which was given to the women"

August Wennerstrom remembered the following "One of our friends, a man by the name of JOHAN LUNDAHL who had been home to the old country on a visit and was going back to the United States said to us 'Good-bye friends, I'm too old to fight the Atlantic' he went to the smoking room and there on a chair was awaiting his last call. So did an ENGLISH LADY; She sat down by the piano and, with her CHILD on her knee, she played the piano until the Atlantic grave called them both"

Ella White later said, "Before we cut loose from the ship TWO of the SEAMEN with us...took out cigarettes and lighted them on an occasion like that!"
and "The men who rowed me took HIS oar and rowed all over the boat in every direction. I said to him, "Why don't you put the oar in the oarlock?" he said, 'Do you put it in that hole?' I said "Certainly" He said, 'I never had an oar in my hand before' I spoke to the OTHER MAN and he said, 'I have never had an oar in my hand before, but I think I can row'

I read before that Emily Goldsmith became part of an informal network of at least 16 widows who kept in touch, sharing advice and information on lawyers and remarriage.

I know of only Rosa Abbott. any others?

Thanks for your help.
 

Ben Holme

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Hi Andrew,

1) George Achilles Harder

2) Impossible to say for sure. Perhaps Edith Peacock and one of her young children?

3) Steward Alfred Crawford and Scullion Alfred Simmons (possibly).

4) I would imagine most 3rd class British widows joined this goup.

Hope this helps,

Regards,
Ben
 
Dec 12, 1999
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Hi Andrew,

I believe Mr. Frolicher-Stehli may have been referring to Dr. Frauenthal in his account. I can't say for sure but there is a strong possibility.

I don't know who the "English lady with her child on her knee playing the piano" was. There are several possibilities but Wennerstrom didn't elaborate further. Also, Wennerstrom saw the "mother and child" on his way up to the deck. There is nothing to say that they didn't survive the sinking either although Wennerstrom never mentioned seeing them afterward.

Mrs. White may have been referring to Thomas Jones or Alfred Crawford in boat #8. I believe Jones was one of the men. In regards to the crew member who had difficulty with the oars, I suspect it was Alfred Crawford or perhaps the other steward who was in the boat - some of whom believe was Fred Hartnell. One would think that able seamen would know how to row but not first-class bedroom stewards. The comment "I've never had an oar in my hand before" does not sound like something seamen would say but bedroom stewards would. I must say that Mrs. White's comments are some of the funniest connected with the Titanic's crew and the event in general. For some other funny remarks about the Titanic's crew, have you read the accounts of Henry Sleeper Harper and Mrs. Shelley? Harper was just as agitated with the crewmen who were in boat #3 as they attempted to row away from the sinking Titanic. Mrs. Shelley and her mother were often at odds with officials during the voyage concerning their staterooms and such.

Emily Goldsmith was in touch with a number of survivors after the sinking. In addition to Mrs. Abbott, she was in communication with Mrs. Thorneycroft, Amy Stanley, Sarah Roth, Emily Badman and others.

I hope this will help.

Best,

Mike
 
Dec 12, 1999
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Hi Ben,

Are you referring to the bottle of gin (some say brandy) that the Harders took with them from their cabin? Their grandson told me that it was certainly put to good use out there. No wonder George and Dorothy looked so good that early in the morning when their picture was taken. I always found it interesting that Dorothy brought a button hook for her shoes as well. Upon leaving their cabin, this was one item that Dorothy felt she would need.

I thought Dr. Frauenthal at first, but yes, it could have very well been George Harder too.

Best,

Mike
 

Andrew Maheux

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Ben Holme, what can I say. I knew you were around to help me, thanks.

Mike,

Yes, I have read the account by Mrs. Imanita Shelley and I agree that both hers and Mrs. White's were particulary funny. I havent, however, read Henry Harpers account.

Thanks for the info guys, more will be coming.

Andrew Maheux
 

Ben Holme

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Hi Mike,

You're quite right that I suggested Harder for that very same reason i.e. that according to George's grandson, Mr and Mrs Harder rescued three things from their cabin before heading up to the boat deck, including a bottle of brandy (all from his ET biography). Frauenthal's a good suggestion too, however. Yes, compared to the other weary-looking survivors, George and Dorothy look rather immaculate in that pic, although Dorothy always looks good IMO!

With my apologies to you, Andrew, I didn't notice your query in regards seaman smoking. By all accounts, Thomas Jones of boat #8 behaved honourably and was considerate of the ladies' comfort in the lifeboat, but that's not to say he necessaily resisited the temptation to light up, if only to calm his nerves. As Mike mentioned above, boat #3 also had its fair share of smoking-related altercations.
 

Andrew Maheux

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Dec 4, 2000
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I have been reading Lawrence Beesley's The Loss of the SS Titanic and I must say it is very good. From this book, I have found some more people with whom we can try to identify.

6) "Standing aloof from all of them, generally on the raised stern deck above the "playing field", was a MAN of about twenty to twenty-four years of age, well dressed, always gloved and nicely groomed, and obviously quite out of place amoung his fellow passengers: he never looked happy...."

7) "Another interesting MAN was travelling steerage, but had placed his WIFE in the second cabin: he would climb the stairs leading from steerage to the second deck and talk affectionately with his wife across the low gate which separated them. I never saw him after the collision, but I think his wife was on the Carpathia"

8) "In the same corridor is this MAN and his WIFE with TWO CHILDREN, and one of them he is generally carrying: they are all young and happy: he is dressed always in a grey knickerbocker suit- with a camera slung over his shoulder"

9) "Close beside me- so near that I cannot avoid hearing scraps of their conversation- are two AMERICAN LADIES, both dressed in white, young, probably friends only: one has been to India and is returning by way of England, the other is a school teacher in America, a graceful girl with a distinguished air heightened by a pair of pince-nez. Engaged in conversation with them is a GENTLEMAN whom I subsequently identified from a photograph as a well known resident of Cambridge, Massachusetts, genial, polished, and with courtly air towards the two ladies, whom he has known but a few hours; from time to time as they talk, a CHILD acquaintance breaks in on their conversation and insits on their taking notice of a large doll clasped in her arms"

-------------------------------
Number 7 I think could be Susan Webber and one of her neighbors who were traveling in 3rd class. Edwina Troutt said that Susan would spend most of her time talking between the gates to the Braund brothers. Lawrence Beesley could have mistaken them for being husband and wife.

Andrew Maheux
 

Pat Cook

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Hi Andrew,

I may be of some help here as I have spent a bit of time annotating Lawrence's book. These are just my ideas on identifications of these people, or those ideas sent to me.

6) "Standing aloof from all of them, generally on the raised stern deck above the "playing field...",

The indomitable Sen Malony sent me this one. He believes the man to be Thomas Morrow. He had been scheduled to depart on Titanic with a fellow Mason but, at the last minute, his friend did not go. Morrow was the only 3rd class passenger from Ulster.

7) "Another interesting MAN was travelling steerage, but had placed his WIFE in the second cabin:..."

Like you, I too had Susan Webber and one of the Braund brothers listed as likely candidates. However, I feel now that the two MOST likely candidates would be Olga Lundin and her fiance' Nils Johansson. Both had booked 3rd class passages but Nils then paid extra to have Olga moved to 2nd class.

8) "In the same corridor is this MAN and his WIFE with TWO CHILDREN, and one of them he is generally carrying: they are all young and happy:..."

Here I perhaps may be taking liberties with Beesley's paragraph - simply because he hadn't seen them since the collision does not necessarily mean they all perished in the night. I feel the best candidates for identification here would be the Edwy West family (Edwy, wife Ada, two children: Constance (5) and Barbara (1).

9) "Close beside me- so near that I cannot avoid hearing scraps of their conversation- are two AMERICAN LADIES, both dressed in white, young, probably friends only: one has been to India..."

Young George Behe and I have thrashed this one over and over. While most identifications have very little to go on for identification, we seem to have an 'embarrassment of riches' here. On this website, it is postulated (an opinion I feel has great merit) that the two ladies are Mrs. Percy (Mary) Corey and Mrs. J. Frank Karnes, both of whom were coming from India and, indeed, good friends. George believes a likely candidate for one of the ladies would be Mrs. Allen (Nellie) Becker (George tells me of a photo of Nellie wearing pince nez glasses). ALSO, there's Annie Funk, a Mennonite missionary ALSO returning from India. So this is where it stands as of now.

I hope this has been of some help. If you have any further info on these identifications, please let me know. In fact, if you have ANY info on ANY of Beesley's 'people', let me know.

Best regards,
Cook
 
Dec 13, 1998
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Dear Pat, Olga Lundin stated later in her life that she had been upgraded to 2nd class, but there exists no evidence that she actually did, this in regard to no 7 on your list.

Best regards,

Peter
 

Andrew Maheux

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10) A MOTOR ENGINEER travelling to America with a model carberetter(sp?) he had filled in his declaration form near me in the afternoon and had questioned the librarian steward how he should declare his patent.- said "Well I am accustomed to estimating distances and I put it (the iceberg) at between eighty and ninety feet"
 

Pat Cook

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Thanks, Peter. I will make this annotation in my project. By the way, I'm so sorry we didn't get to chat further at last years British Titanic Convention. Oh, well, maybe next year...

Andrew, for the 'Motor Engineer' I might suggest Washington Augustus Roebling II. Check out his bio here on E T and see what you think.

Best regards,
Cook
 

Ben Holme

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Hi Andrew,

May I ask where you found the quote for #10? Doesn't look too familiar. If this quote was taken from a 1st class passenger account, then I think Pat's suggestion of Roebling is a very good one.

Ben
 

Pat Cook

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Hi Ben,

Always a treat to talk with you, sir. Andrew is quoting from Beesley's "Loss of the SS Titanic" - page 60 in the original American and British versions, oddly enough. I say oddly enough because in the British edition (3rd printing, anyway) text has been added at the end of two chapters. Whether this was an addition by Beesley or by an editor, I have no idea.

Best regards, as always, O M
Cook
 
Dec 13, 1999
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Gentlemen (and Cook!)

I have reservations about it being Roebling. He was an American, why would he need to take the carb to patent it in the USA as he already lived there? If my memory serves me, I think he was on a holiday trip with his friend Stephen Blackwell. Gentlemen, this needs further investigation!

Geoff
 

Ben Holme

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Always a treat to talk with you, sir.

Likewise, Pat! I hope you and Rose Ann are keeping well.

FWIW, I agree entirely with your above suggestions 6-9. I remember how much I thoroughly enjoyed reading through your various "Beesley identifications" in Southampton.

Should have realised that Andrew's #10 was also Beesley. In which case, we can probably rule Roebling out for the reasons pointed out by Geoff. Also, they would have been in the *2nd* class smoking room at this point. I believe Charles Frederick Waddington Sedgwick, an electrical engineer from Liverpool (also travelling 2nd class) is a strong candidate. What do you all think?

All the best,
Ben
 

Pat Cook

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Hey Geoff and Ben,

We seem to have something of a poser here.

First off, according to Beesley, he went up to the top deck, talked to some people and then went down to the next deck and looked in the windows of the Smoking room. This being the case, it would've been the First Class Smoking Room.

HOWEVER, going by the first quote (#10), if we take it word for word, EITHER there was a First Class passenger in the Second Class Library or a Second Class passenger in the First Class Smoke Room.

Otherwise, Sedgwick would CERTAINLY be a good candidate.

Curiously yours,
Cook
 
Aug 20, 2000
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It might help to know that Denzil Jarvis was taking a patent for a carberetter (sp)to America with him. He was managing director of an engineering firm in Leicester, but was hoping that the patent would change the company radically after his meetings in the US. I believe that is who Beesley sat next to in the lounge.
Regards
Craig
 
Dec 13, 1999
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Always lurking in the background with the correct answer - that's my great friend Craig! I'm not sure why Jarvis chose to travel second class - he was a very well heeled gentleman - possibly he found the formalities of first class travel too constricting.

Geoff
 

Pat Cook

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Excellent choice and thanks, Craig! Where did you find out about Jarvis's 'carberetter'? Can you give me your source?

That being said, this brings up the question again - and one I had posed some months ago - Could a Second Class passenger go into a First Class area?

As ever and ever,
Cook
 

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