Does anybody know who these people are?


Andrew Maheux

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Dec 4, 2000
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I gathered from different books, and from accounts of the sinking, things the survivors saw from other people. I bet you fellow expert researchers can help me shed light on who these people were.

here goes..

In the book, "A Night to Remember"

1) A YOUNG WESTERN COUPLE waited nearby when Lightoller asked the girl if he could put her in a boat, she told him cheerfully, "Not on your life, we started together and, if need be, we'll finish together".

2) A passenger on the Carpathia, Miss. Peterson noticed A LITTLE GIRL named Emily sitting on the promenade deck, sobbing, "Oh, Mama, Mama, I'm sick. Oh Mama, Mama!"

3) In the Third class dining saloon on the Carpathia, an ITALIAN WOMAN went completely to pieces- sobbing, screaming, banging her fists on the table. Over and over and over she cried, "Bambino!". An Italian steward coaxed out the information that both her babies were missing. One was soon located, but she held up two fingers and the hysterics started again. Finally the other was found too- in the pantry on the hot press, where it had been left to thaw out.

4) In the lifeboat A WOMAN said to steward Etches "Appeal to the officer not to go back.Why should we all lose our lives in a useless attempt to save others from the ship".

5) In Marguerite Frolicher's boat and still being deathly seasick, she was noticed by a kindly GENTLEMAN sitting nearby. He pulled out a silver flask with a cup top and suggested a drink of brandy might help.

6) In boat 16 A MAN in white pajamas looked so cold he reminded the other passengers of a snowman.

7) In boat 13 AN ELDERLY LADY offered Fireman Beauchamp an extra coat but he refused, insisting that it go to a young Irish girl instead.

8) Maud slocombe helped bawl out A WOMAN who kept setting off an alarm clock in boat 11.

9) AN OLD LADY made a big fuss at boat no. 9, finally shook off everybody, and ran away from the boat altogether.

10) A HYSTERICAL WOMAN thrashed about helplessly, trying to climb into boat 11. Steward Witter stood on the rail to help her, but she lost her footing and they tumbled into the boat together.

11) A LARGE FAT WOMAN stood crying near boat 13, "Don't put me in the boat, I don't want to go into the boat! I have never been in an open boat in my life!". Steward Ray brushed aside her protest- "you've got to go, and you may as well keep quiet."

12) Emily Richards remembered "ONE WOMAN who spoke a tongue none of us could understand was picked up by the boat and believed that her children were lost. She was entirely mad. When her children were brought to her on the Carpathia she was wild with joy and lay down on the Children on the floor trying to cover them with her body like a wild beast protecting its young."
--
13) Ellen Toomey remembered in her boat" ONE FRENCH WOMAN who had lost her husband became frantic in her grief, but we calmed her."

14) On the Titanic A WOMAN asked "What do they need of lifeboats? This ship could smash a hundred icebergs and not feel it. Rediculous!" she anounced.

15) On the promenade deck, Steward Arthur Lewis saw THREE LADIES strolling arm and arm and pleaded with them to get into a lifeboat. "We're alright steward, the ship can't sink," they told him, "and we don't want to go down in one of those little boats."

16) On Carpathia one inspector was routinely asking A YOUNG COLLEEN if she had an immigration card. "Divil a bit of a card have I" she said wide-eyed. "I'm lucky to have me own life."

17) ONE GIRL waiting to climb into boat 8 suddenly cried out, "I've forgotten Jack's photograph and must get it." everybody protested, but she darted below. In a moment she reappeared with the picture and was rushed into the boat.

18) A PRETTY FRENCH GIRL stumbled and fell as she tried to climb into boat 9.

19) Washington Dodge recalled , him and his wife were acquainted with A COUPLE residing in Los Angeles.

20) Elizabeth Dowdell remembered "AN ENGLISH MAN stepped to my side and picked up my charge. He held her up high as possible, but was too small to grasp the hand overhead. "step on my face, kiddie," he said. She was lifted up and Miss. Dowdell stepped up on his hands. "Goodbye Miss, and good luck," he said.
She also said "ONE WOMAN fom a capsized boat came near to us. She was swimming. "Man, let go of me," she pleaded to someone who was hanging on to her. "I will not," responded the masculine voice. "If I do I will drown." He did let go, however, and the woman was hauled aboard. She said she had been swimming for an hour, and supporting this unknown man for half of that time."
also "There was one instance of A FAMILY of nine including the mother and father. The men tried to force one of the daughters into the boat, but when she learned that her father and brothers could not be saved, she leaped back on the wave-washed Titanic deck. This was the boat lowered after ours."

21) Milvina Dean remembered "Another WOMAN whose husband was left behind was only concerned that she'd lost her feather bed...She didn't say anything about her husband just that her feather bed had gone."

22) Mary Marvin could not row, but she helped by taking care of A LITTLE BROWN EYED FRENCH GIRL who was handed into the boat as it was being lowered. There was no one to claim the youngster, and she still carried the child in her arms nearly five hours later when the Carpathia had came to the rescue. The youngster is now in the care of the Women's Relief Committee.

23) Helen Bishop remembered " The GIRL who occupied a stateroom across from us refused to get up and the stewards pulled her out of bed . She got back in and sank with the ship." and in the lifeboat "I took off my stockings and gave them to a LITTLE GIRL who hadn't as much time to dess as I had."

Sorry if this is so long but it would be interesting to see if we can put names to these people.

A little more to come later.

Andrew Maheux
 

Ben Holme

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Feb 11, 2001
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Hi Andrew,

A number of the following are merely suggestions, but here goes:

1) John and Elizabeth Chapman (2nd class)

3) Mrs. Sebastiano Del Carlo

4) I could suggest candidates based on what I know of their character, but it could really have been any of the women on boat #5 with the exceptions of Mrs Dodge and Mrs. Harder. IMO, this woman (if it was only *one* woman) expressed the sentiments of the majority.

5) George Achilles Harder

6) probably a stoker

7) Lucy Risdale (2nd class)

9) Mrs. Mary Mack (2nd class)

12) Mrs. William Hamalainen

13) Madame Aubart

14) A very silly person

15) Possibly Claire Karnes, Mrs. Percy Corey and somebody else.

16) Could have been any of the young survivng colleen including Kate Murphy and Kate Gilnagh.

17) Ruth Taussig or one of the maids.

18) Madame Aubert again...or possibly her maid Emma Sagesser (sp?)

19) Walter and Virginia Clark

20) "family" were most likely the Sages, Stella was the girl who initially stepped into a boat.

23) John and Nelle snyder occupied the cabin directly across from the Bishop's cabin (B-49). B-43 was the only other cabin "across" from the Bishops and this was, as far as can be deduced, unoccpied.

I'll get back to you on the others..

Hope this helps,

Ben
 

Andrew Maheux

Member
Dec 4, 2000
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Michael and Tracy, thats correct. I'm relating the experiences of Eva Dean, but Milvina was the one who gave the account from her mothers words.

Ben, Thanks for helping me out.

here are some other ones...

24) Caroline Bonnell remembered in the lifeboat "ONE WOMAN had white satin slippers and an evening dress on. I don't know whether she had that attire on when she struck or whether, in her excitment, she put it on by mistake."

25) Mary Davis remembered helping A POOR STEERAGE WOMAN with her two small children. For most of the night, she held a baby while its mother cared for the other.

26) In Julius Sap's boat when an officer threatened to shoot him if he tried to climb into the small craft, AN AMERICAN WOMAN in the boat intervened. Brushing the officer's gun aside, she purportedly said "I can't see the poor fellow die. We might as well all go together."

27) When the Carpathia arrived in New York one reporter thought he made eye contact with A YOUNG WOMAN. "Are you one of the Titanic survivors?" he called to her through a megaphone. "Yes", the voice replied hestiatingly.
"Do you need help?"
There was a long silence. "No."
"If there is anything you want done it will be attended to," the reporter shouted.
"Thank you," came the reply. "I have been informed that my relatives will meet me at the pier."

28) A second reporter spotted what looked like ANOTHER SURVIVOR. The all- important question was called to her. "Is Mr. John Jacob Astor on board?"
"No" came the answer.
"Did he remain on the Titanic after the collision?"
"I do not know." then silence.

29) As the passengers disembarked from the Carpathia A YOUNG WOMAN appeared; she was hatless, her light brown hair disheveled. She stepped onto the gangplank and hesitated, her eyes darting about at the enormous multitude staring transfixed at her. Her steps quickened and she walked the rest of the way down. As she passed the cordoned section, she was enveloped by a bevy of reporters.
"Survivor?" they asked in unison.
"Yes"
"Your name, please."


There thats all the ones I have for now. Thanks for helping me.

Andrew Maheux
 

Ben Holme

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Feb 11, 2001
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Hi Andrew,

24) Well, ruling out the maids and the women with whom she was acquainted/related, i.e Mary and Natalie Wick and Elizabeth Bonnell, we are still left with a large number of candidates. I find it unlikely that this woman would throw on an evening dress by mistake, although it should not be ruled out as a possibility. The only boat #8 women whose wherabouts at the time of the collision I'm uncertain are Edith Pears, Mrs Swift, and Dr. Alice Leader. The other women, it can be ascertained, were all in their room when the ship struck. In other words, it could be pretty much anyone as I've just remembered the detail that she was wearing slippers! (which would indicate that our women was indeed in bed..)

25) Mrs. Hjalmar Sandstrom and her two daughters, Marguerite (4) and Beatrice (1)

26) I'd imagine (and I'm merely guessing here) that this American/Canadian woman was "unattached". In which case Emma Schabert, Edith Russell and Maude Sincock emerge as likely candidates (If indeed boat #11 was Sap's boat).

I'm afraid we may never discover the identities of the other three..

Best Regards,
Ben
 

Andrew Maheux

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Dec 4, 2000
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Ben, Thanks for your help. I think I'll have a go at trying to find out any of these and see what I come up with. I will display my results here on the board.

Regards,

Andrew Maheux
 
M

Mac Smith

Guest
24) In an article from the Lewiston {Maine} Evening Journal, 4/19/12 edition, Dr. Leader gives her story:

'"I was traveling with a party of four," she said, "and I was about to retire Sunday night when I heard a crash accompanied by a pronounced jarring of the stop. The shock was over in a moment. With others of the passengers I made my way to the deck to see what was taking place...going up on the boat deck, I found the crew was launching the lifeboats. ...I had on good warm clothes but others who were in the frail craft were not as fortunate..."'

Dr. Leader does not mention specifically if she was getting ready for bed or was in dinner clothes. There is, however, a recording of fellow traveler Mrs. Kenyon that is sold by the Titanic Historical Society which might shed more light on this subject.

Mac Smith
 

Ben Holme

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Feb 11, 2001
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Hi Mac,

Nice to hear from you.

Thank you for sharing that newspaper extract with us. I too, have a copy of Marion Kenyon's poignant interview, recorded in 1957. Unfortunately, she only mentions Mrs. Swift and Dr. Leader at the very beginning of the interview and makes no reference to their actions/movements whilst on board Titanic.

However, from what she reported to the Lewsiton Journal, one could infer from her comment; "I was *about* to retire", that she had not *fully* changed for bed, which may explain the "evening wear" and "white satin slippers" mixture of attire as described by Caroline Bonnell.

Regards,
Ben
 

Andrew Maheux

Member
Dec 4, 2000
426
1
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Ben,

Numbers 1) 9) 20) 25) I agree with you.

Number 3) I am a bit skepticall about because Argene Del Carlo did not have any children at the time although she was pregnant.

Number 15) I agree with you on Claire Karnes and Mary Corey. In my opinion I think the other woman could possibly have been Annie Funk, they were all returning from India, travelled in the same class and Karnes and Corey could have become aquainted with Miss Funk during the voyage

Those are the ones I looked into for now and will check the others later.

Thanks for your help.

Andrew Maheux
Canada
 

Ben Holme

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Feb 11, 2001
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Andrew,

I suggested Argene Del Carlo as a potential candidate for our hysterical woman becasue, as I understand it, she was linked to another unfortuntate "lost baby" incident on Carpathia. It has been suggested that Mrs. Del Carlo was the Italian woman who, upon noticing the young, unaccompanied Filly Aks on boat #11, attempted to claim him for her own, refusing to hand over the child even when the real mother appeared.

Bearing in mind that Argene was pregnant and moreover, had lost her husband, one can imagine the extent of her dispair. Hysteria may have taken over and clouded her reasoning.

Ben
 

Andrew Maheux

Member
Dec 4, 2000
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Hi, Ben

I wonder why Argene Claimed the baby as her own when she knew she had no children.

Numbers 5) 6) 13) 14) 17) 18) 19) and 26) I agree with.

Number 7) Either Mary Hewlett or as you said Lucy Ridsdale as I remember reading that she had a lot of blankets with her in the boat, so its probably her.

10) Probably Nellie Becker because her children were already in the boat and it was going to leave without her.

16) What's a colleen?

Thats all for now.

Andrew
 

Petra Stevens

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Jan 16, 2002
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Hi everybody,

I would like to add my guesses at who these peoples were:

2) The little girl couldn't have been Emily Ryerson, because she was 18 years old when the Titanic sank. When you exclude the girls who wouldn't have said "I'm sick" in english (e.g. Marguerite Sandström, Eugenie Baclini, Anna Karun, Lilian Asplund) then we end up with Joan Wells (4 years), Winnifred Quick (8), Eva Hart (7), Marjorie Collyer (8), Marion Louise Becker (4). Ethel Virginia Emanuel (5) was with her Nanny Miss Dowdell (and not with her mother) so the best guess is perhaps Marion Louise Becker or Joan Wells. Perhaps Miss Peterson (Passenger from the Carpathia) got the name of the little girl wrong.

6) The only passenger who is linked with being saved only in his pyjamas is - as far as I know -Mr. Robert W. Daniel. But he is said to have been in Lifeboat Nr. 7.

9) The old lady who left the lifeboat altogether could have been Mrs. Meanwell (3rd class), Mrs. Lena Solvang (3rd class) or Miss Isham (1st class).

22) Perhaps Mrs. Marvin did look after André Mallet in the boat. He had quite long hair judging after the photo in the book "Women and children first". There was more than one child that was separated from his mother although his or her mother was in the same boat with him/her (e.g. Assad Thomas and Alden Caldwell).

Petra Stevens
 

Ben Holme

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Feb 11, 2001
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Hi Petra,

Good observations re 2. I hadn't quite appreciated the number of candidates left remaining after ruling out the non-English girls.

Robert Daniel allegedly told reporters that he jumped off the ship with the Wideners and was later picked up by a passing lifeboat. I find it more likely that he entered an early starboard boat. Gracie places him in #7, but I'm of the opinion that he escaped in boat #3 with a number of unmarried men.

I agee with you on 22) as there appears to be no other plausible alternative.

Hi Andrew,

10) I must have overlooked this onr, but I like your suggestion of Nellie Becker. It fits.

16) "Colleen" is an Irish term meaning "young girl".

Best,

Ben
 

Petra Stevens

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Jan 16, 2002
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Hi Ben,
hi Andrew,

a bit late this one, but I had to go through some notes and books to be able to make a guess at

3) I think the "italian Woman" could have been Mrs. Juliette La Roche. She was the only surving woman with two little babies (girls, aged 3 and 1 3/4). And I think if she had been separated from her little girls after boarding the CARPATHIA she would have had a cause to get carried away. Because it is said that the woman was italian it doesn't mean that she was indeed italian (think of 5 th Officer Lowe and his remark about the italian men being cowards etc.)
Otherwise I could only point out at two women from 3rd class with two children (although not so small children):
Mrs. Amenia Moubarek (2 sons, 7 and 3 years old)
or Mrs. Hannah Touma (1 daughter, 9 years old and 1 son, 7 years old). But their children are probably too old for the description.

All the best,

Petra
 

Petra Stevens

Member
Jan 16, 2002
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131
Hi Ben,
hi Andrew,

I just want to add one more guess:

12) The woman who went mad and protected her children with her own body onboard CARPATHIA could have been Mrs. Peter Joseph who was separated from her son (6 years old) and escaped in Boat "D" with her daughter Mary (2 years old) and her son was rescued in Boat "C". I think when they were reunited onboard the CARPATHIA she was overwhelmed with relief and joy to see her son again.

All the best,

Petra
 
E

Elaine R Barnes

Guest
I have to add another mystery into the mix. From reading Unsinkable-the Full Story by Daniel Butler- he mentions a couple locked in cabin C-58 who would not come out when the stewards were checking to make sure passengers were all on deck. Supposedly, no one ever knew who they were or if they ever came out of the cabin.
Is this another made-up story or does anyone know anything about this couple?
Sincerely,
Elaine
 
E

Elaine R Barnes

Guest
Sorry, Folks, I got the cabin number wrong, it was C 78, not C 58, as Lester pointed out to me. Therefore, the Spencers were probably the couple in the cabin.
Thanks, Lester.
Sincerely,
Elaine
 

Ben Holme

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Feb 11, 2001
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Hi Elaine,

Etches almost certainly meant to say B-78, rather than C-deck. C-78 was, after all, occupied by the Minahan family (William, wife Lillian, and sister Daisy). He couldn't have been referring to the Minahans as they had, by this time, left their cabin. Also, Etches had just moved forward from administering to Benjamin Guggenheim and adjusting his lifejacket. As Guggenheim was definately on B-deck, we can thus deduce that Etches was referring *B-78*. The Spencers payed a high enough price for this cabin, and they comfortably fit the description of "a stiff built man and a short skinny lady" and with a "shortish name" that "began with S", better than any other couple in first class, not least the Minahans.

All - on the point of Etches' testimony, I too have an "identity question" pertaining to the next couple whom Etches encountered on B-deck, just after giving up on the Spencers. He recalled "I passed along (i.e. forward) and I found one cabin was empty, and then I came to another cabin and a lady and gentleman stood at the door. They were swinging a lifebelt in their hands". It appears that one of the B-deck suites a few cabins aft of B-78 was occupied by another couple. There were only two "unnassigned" couples who paid a high enough price for a B-deck suite, and these were George Rosenshine and Maybelle Thorne and the Meyers. However, its a possibilty that an upgrade was obtained by someone else.

Any ideas regarding the identity of this couple?

Best Regards,
Ben
 

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