Dogs


Feb 2, 2019
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by the way, now that we are talking about the animals on the titanic, is anyone of you recognising this part of the Titanic? Deck? I don't recall to have ever seen large
dogs-of-Titanic-2-300x215.jpg
cargo winches at the cabin sites of the Titanic?
 
Mar 18, 2008
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by the way, now that we are talking about the animals on the titanic, is anyone of you recognising this part of the Titanic? Deck? I don't recall to have ever seen largeView attachment 43719 cargo winches at the cabin sites of the Titanic?
Sadly this is one which came up very often as a photograph showing dogs on Titanic but it is not. It is a photograph taken aboard the Berengaria (ex Imperator).
 
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Sadly this is one which came up very often as a photograph showing dogs on Titanic but it is not. It is a photograph taken aboard the Berengaria (ex Imperator).
Thank you very much for your answer! There is a second (and last) picture circulating about the dogs, also alledgedly taken by father Brown before he left Titanic at Cobh.
titanic-dogs-hmed.png-800x600-q85-crop-300x225.jpg

I tend to believe it is genuine since I kind of recognize the ladders to the crawsnests next to either the forecastle or stern cargo sections of the Titanic. What is your opinion? Hoax too? Sincerely, Dirk
 
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If the claim is it was taken by father Brown then yes. I think the photograph is from the Smithsonian (?) and making it's rounds online as Titanic's dogs. There has been also the false claim that the photograph was taken aboard the Carpathia showing the rescued dogs of Titanic, again false. There is no connection to Titanic. The dogs are unknown, the ship is unknown. (The foremast had a ladder inside, the lookouts climbed that ladder from the access on C Deck in the forecastle to get into the crows nest.)
 
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Hello, thank you a lot for your reply!
I have no proof Father Browne took the picture (yet), I purchased "Titanic Souvenirs" but I don't have it in my possession yet. And yes, the Smithsonian seems to claim this is an authentic Titanic picture...
Nevertheless, me too, I tend to believe that the accessladders of both the Titanic foreship and the stern are in a deck section with a solid (closed) ramp and not an open one like shown in this picture...
However, the dogs (a Great Dane and a fox terrier) would be very 'convenient' as William Dulles had a fox terrier he claimed loss for and it might be that the Great Dane belonged to Elisabeth Anne Isham. Anyway, if these dogs were on the Titanic, then they would have been property of first class voyagers (referring to the price of a ticket).
Four women of first class perished in a rather 'witnessed' way: Ida Straus holding the arm of her husband, Edith Evans collapsed overboard a lifeboat and Bess Allisson went missing when she crossed the ship in search for her child and husband.
Only Mrs Isham is believed not to have boarded a lifeboat or to get off it - because her dog was not allowed to join her on board of the lifeboat. But there is no proof she had a dog, although a Great Dane was payed for & registered.
Some people a posteriori witnessed there was a St Bernard on board of Titanic, and Joanna Stunke reported to have seen a frozen woman holding on to a "shaggy St Bernard" when the SS Bremen crossed the maritime graveyard on April 20th.
The Great Dane on the picture clearly is (after enhancement of the picture) of the Harlequin type, meaning that he is mixed white with brown and black spots and could therefore easily have been mistaken for a St Bernard of the Splashed Mantle type. Then it is only the length of hair that is a (minor) difference in quite similar looking dogs.
Of course, one cannot force the facts; the second picture would explain a lot "IF" taken on board of the Titanic. The bulldog then - would NOT be the French bulldog Gamin - who swom with 21 year old tennisplayer Norris Williams and who believed he was hallucinating due to hypothermia. And so Edith Russell's testimony that Robert Williams Daniel has left his dog in his cabin, would be true.
Really need to know if the picture is a hoax or not...
Sincerely,
Dirk
 
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I have no proof Father Browne took the picture (yet), I purchased "Titanic Souvenirs" but I don't have it in my possession yet.
It is not one of the photos Browne took.

And yes, the Smithsonian seems to claim this is an authentic Titanic picture...
Nevertheless, me too, I tend to believe that the accessladders of both the Titanic foreship and the stern are in a deck section with a solid (closed) ramp and not an open one like shown in this picture...
It is not Titanic, the deck even did not look close to it. No idea what ship it is.

However, the dogs (a Great Dane and a fox terrier) would be very 'convenient' as William Dulles had a fox terrier he claimed loss for and it might be that the Great Dane belonged to Elisabeth Anne Isham.
Sorry to say but Mrs. Isham did not had a dog. It is sad to see that this made up story is still making it's rounds online (it started several years ago with a baseless claim in a child book which was taken by some as a fact) along with the false photographs. It is known who had a dog with him and which dogs survived (they were taken into the lifeboats by their owners). Some of the dogs did stay in the cabins with their owners while others where in the kennel.
The report from Johanna Stunke is well known among researchers, some believe it might have been a fur coat she saw.
 
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SmileyGirl

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The story that always upsets me is the one where a lady had a dog which was refused into the lifeboat and so she refused to get in. Her body was found later with her arms around the dog. Is there any truth to this story guys? If so, who was it? Thanks.
 
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That story made it's rounds but no survivor directly said to have seen it or that it happened at her or his boat. In short no one saw it.
 
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SmileyGirl

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Ok, I’m kind of relieved at that, it always makes me cry!
 
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Thank you so much for the replies, very much appreciated!!! I joined this forum less than a day ago and what an education already it has been!
According to Pr Joseph Edgette of the Widener University, 12 dogs boarded the Titanic and were registered. Possibly there were a few more in the 2nd or 3rd class, but these dogs were probably more like 'smuggled'. I reckon this is possible, I did it myself with a quiet Jack Russel Terrier under my sweater on a Greek ferryboat (LOL).
We know for sure that Col JJ Astor IV and his young wife Madeleine had their pet Airedale Terrier 'Kitty' accompanying them. The dog was last seen pacing on the slanting deck after JJ Astor had helped his pregnant wife in lifeboat 4.
W. Carter had two dogs accompanying him and his family: also an (elderly) Airedale Terrier and a fox terrier. Harry Anderson had his chowchow with him. RW Daniel purchased a champion French Bulldog named Gamin. This small dog was kept with certitude in his cabin. The same accounts for two Pomerians: one belonging to M. Hays and one belonging to E. Rothshild. Also H. Harper and his wife kept their toy dog, a Pekingese called Sun Yat Sen, in their cabin. Also did H. Bishop, she kept a Pomerian like toy dog named FrouFrou in her cabin.
This makes a total of 9 dogs. For 4 of the missing dogs a claim was filed. 3 toy dogs were taken into the lifeboats and were rescued, Gamin and Froufrou were left in their cabins. Meaning that two Airedales (the one of JJ Astor and the one of Carter), one foxterrier and one chowchow would have resulted in 'the surrealistic view of pacing dogs on the slanting deck' and 'that someone must have set them free' (from the kennels situated at the F-deck, but which was immerged by then??) Or were they freed from another location (from the Boatdeck - similar to sistership Olympic)?
Anyway, our count misses 3 dogs.
You mentioned every dog was + the owner registered. Could you please assist me where I can find the 3 'missing' dogs?
Much obliged, thank you very much for these interesting discussions.
Sincerely,
Dirk
 
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I forgot to mention. The claim made about Mrs Isham and her Great Dane is in the 2004 children's book 'White Star: a Dog on the Titanic' (ISBN-13: 978-0439711685). But the author Marty Crisp states he did not invent the story, instead he first researched 11 regsistered dogs, just to drop in with a 12th imaginative dog which he called White Star...
 
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Thank you so much for the replies, very much appreciated!!! I joined this forum less than a day ago and what an education already it has been!
You are welcome!

According to Pr Joseph Edgette of the Widener University, 12 dogs boarded the Titanic and were registered. Possibly there were a few more in the 2nd or 3rd class, but these dogs were probably more like 'smuggled'.
I do not know how they count the dogs to came to a total of 12. Possibly they added the imaginary dog to Mrs Isham?! Aboard were in total 11 dogs.

That any 2nd & 3rd class "smuggled" a dog aboard is not possible. 3rd class had to pass the examinations by the ships doctors. For 2nd and 3rd class passengers it would be then also the question about how to "hide" a dog for 6 days. How to feed it or went out. That is not possible. The immigrants in 3rd class had also then to pass Ellis Island when in New York.

"someone must have set them free' (from the kennels situated at the F-deck, but which was immerged by then??) Or were they freed from another location (from the Boatdeck - similar to sistership Olympic)?"
The general story goes that Astor released the dogs as Mrs. Astor claimed to have seen Kitty running up the deck when she looks back from the lifeboat. Mrs. Astor was in lifeboat No.4 which rowed aft along the port side. Makes one wonder how she was able to see that, also she is the only one stating it.
The kennels were in the early plans on F Deck, later on Olympic they were moved to the boat deck at the aft end of the deck house of the 4th funnel. It is not clear if they were on Titanic on the boat deck or below.

Anyway, our count misses 3 dogs.
The Astors had 2 dogs, both an Airedale. The other dog owner was Mr. Dulles he had a Scottish terrier.
 
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Thank you again, much obliged! Really!

I was not aware of the strict controls for 2nd and 3rd class passengers. Indeed, it must have been difficult, let us say impossible to 'stowaway' dogs
Yes indeed you are right, I too found a few sources that suggest that the Astors might have been accompanied by not one but two Airedale terriers. I just find it remarkable that the second Airedale is never mentioned, not in New York on Fifth Avenue walks, not on the Olympic, not even once during the honeymoon trip to Egypt where Kitty was lost - the latter has been so well documented. Including the amount of small fortune JJ Astor spent to find his beloved pet back, and the report of how she was found back when the Astors returned from a cruise on the Nile with Kitty still missing. It is 'strange' that the second pet Airdeale is never mentioned over the course of the honeymoon trip (Jan 12th till April 10th) almost certainly meaning that the second pet must have been purchased very late during the honeymoon trip. But, Airedale terriers were hard to get those days as they were the first choice working dogs of all armies (especially the German who were purchasing and training Airedale terriers from 1910 on, in preparation of WWI). To give an example, Leland Duncan was not able to procure himself an Airedale, instead he adopted and transferred two GSD pups (Nénette and Rintintin the First). JJ Astor of course had more money than a US corporal, stilI, I find it remarkable that the second pet is not mentioned 'earlier'.

The sources that suggest the Astors had two Airedales are the same sources that mention Mrs Elisabeth Ann Isham was accompanied by a Great Dane.

You are absolutely right, I forgot to mention W. Dulles (Fox vs Scottish terrier)

Pr Edgette of Widener University (Widener was the only one of three who survived the Titanic shipwreck) always mentions 12 dogs. His count includes Mrs Isham's Great Dane.

Could you perhaps pinpoint or direct me to a source mentioning a dog's list that I have been overlooking till now?

Thank you very much, have a nice weekend!
Dirk
 

Harland Duzen

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That story made it's rounds but no survivor directly said to have seen it or that it happened at her or his boat. In short no one saw it.
Not to bring up a sad incident again, but what about the account from a passenger on the Bremen which passed though the wreckage and claimed to (unfortunately) see a passenger clutching a dog?
 
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SmileyGirl

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Not to bring up a sad incident again, but what about the account from a passenger on the Bremen which passed though the wreckage and claimed to (unfortunately) see a passenger clutching a dog?
Oh this is what I’m talking about :(
 
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The sources that suggest the Astors had two Airedales are the same sources that mention Mrs Elisabeth Ann Isham was accompanied by a Great Dane.
Which source is it? I am afraid I have not seen it. The two dogs Astor had were mentioned by another survivor whose name just escape me. I would need to look though my notes as it is some time ago I have continue my research into it. (One of my very first articles in English was about the pets aboard Titanic.)


Pr Edgette of Widener University (Widener was the only one of three who survived the Titanic shipwreck) always mentions 12 dogs. His count includes Mrs Isham's Great Dane.
So I was right, the dog No. 12 is the "imaginary" dog of Mrs. Isham. She did not have one. And as I mentioned, no survivor ever mentioned to have seen such a scene, yet we sadly see how this story not only is presented as a fact but also connected to a person (Mrs. Isham).
 
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Not to bring up a sad incident again, but what about the account from a passenger on the Bremen which passed though the wreckage and claimed to (unfortunately) see a passenger clutching a dog?
I have already mentioned it in my post #31, that it is believed (by some researchers) that it might have been a fur coat (or a body wearing a fur coat).
 
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Not to bring up a sad incident again, but what about the account from a passenger on the Bremen which passed though the wreckage and claimed to (unfortunately) see a passenger clutching a dog?
That would be Mrs Joanna Stunke on April 20th, 1912. What she saw is what she believed. She believed she saw a woman clutching (quote) a "shaggy St Bernard". What she saw is the fundamental pivot of a binary algoritm: the "yes" or "no" whether she saw a shaggy St Bernard held in the frozen arms of woman (that was not retrieved by one the chartered ships) or - what most believe today - a dark fur coat.
However, St Bernards were among the best known and most iconic dogs in the late eighties or early nineteens, mostly due to a Swiss herodog called Barry who received a large statue at Mme Durant's Pet Cemetery of Asnières-Paris during its inauguration in 1900. This was well documented and world news. Everyone on this planet knew what a St Bernard was or looked like those days. St Bernards never come in black colour, they have so called reddish mantled or splashed coats with lots of white. Newfoundlanders, Leonbergers or extremely rare Himalayan breeds come in dark coats and could morphologically be mistaken for St Bernards, especially when they are only partially unvisible because of immersion.
Me personally I don't know fur from a wild animal that has a mantled or splashed St Bernard colour pattern, unless it is a synthetic fabric - which was not available in 1912. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that a fur coat could be mistaken for the iconic St Bernard those days. Apparently, I did not find those testimonials yet!! some survivors rememembered to have met a very friendly St Bernard on board, much to their amusement. This would have been Mrs Isham's dog.
But, if one recognizes the muzzle of a dog in collapsable D (which I don't: this looks like an artifact to me laying on the lifeboat's floor) or if some keep stating that the Astors were accompanied by 2 Airedales, then I tend to believe that Mrs Isham was accompanied by - let us say - a large dog. Astor's 'Kitty' was heavily reported on since she was lost before the Astors' cruise on the Nile and apparently the Astors had a second one, an "invisible" Airedale. Kitty has been photopraphed at least 4 times (pictures circulating on the internet) in NY, the other Airedale never and it is never mentioned. If there was a second Airedale, Astor must have obtained it just before their return to New York.
Another story, apparentely, Carter's terrified son begged JJ Astor to look after his pet Airedale en pet KC: Astor allegedly promised to do so. That would make 3 Airedales...

I thank you all people - especially Mark Baber for the many links sent which helped me very much to sum it up (for me):

. There are no existing pictures of the pets on board of the Titanic. The two circulating pics are false claims: one taken on the Berengeria and one on an unidentified ship which is not the Titanic
. No one seems to know/proof with 100% certitude how many dogs there were on the Titanic: the number is at least 10 - it could be 12 as well
. the unidentified dog in collapsible D looks like an artefact to me: the remark of 1 person 'no one seemed to object' or 'dog of a banker's daughter' is granted as proof- against all odds because this would concern an unregistered dog (?), which would be impossible.
. Tennisstar Norris swam accross a bulldog in the freezing ocean and believed it was a hallucination: probably it was! Because E. Russell testified she had confined Gamin de Pycombe in the cabin of its (fled) owner
. The Astors' are sometimes reported to have shipped two Airedale terriers: highly displayed and documented Kitty and an invisible one
. Boy Carter begs JJ Astor to look after his dogs, Astor promises the boy to do so
. The Isham story is not started by Marty Crisp (2004) in 'White Star: a dog on the Titanic': the story already circulated by then. Logically, it must have originated with Joanna Stunke's eyewitness statement and some simple maths following the reasoning: only the rich had their pets boarded. It was a woman Joanna saw clutching to a fur coat or a 'shaggy St Bernard'. Four first class women perished, three of them in eyewitnessed conditions. Isham was reported to have descended and ascended a lifeboat 'for reasons of her dog'. Her body was - if retrieved - not identified, her dissappearing or death is unwitnessed, general Gracie had his cabin next to her but did not recall to have seen her once. To me - if we take for truth all of the above - I count the exact same (non) validated parameters to accept the story of the big dog and Mrs Isham as well...

Thank you all so much for this remarkable and very interesting input of data. Much obliged, you folks are the best!! I learned a lot!!! And I got a lot of extra data to forge my opinion on what happened to the (unexact) number of dogs. Without paying attention to the Rigel, Mouser and Jenny-stories (LOL)

Have a nice WE!!
Dirk
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. No one seems to know/proof with 100% certitude how many dogs there were on the Titanic: the number is at least 10 - it could be 12 as well
. The Isham story is not started by Marty Crisp (2004) in 'White Star: a dog on the Titanic': the story already circulated by then. Logically, it must have originated with Joanna Stunke's eyewitness statement and some simple maths following the reasoning: only the rich had their pets boarded. It was a woman Joanna saw clutching to a fur coat or a 'shaggy St Bernard'. Four first class women perished, three of them in eyewitnessed conditions. Isham was reported to have descended and ascended a lifeboat 'for reasons of her dog'. Her body was - if retrieved - not identified, her dissappearing or death is unwitnessed, general Gracie had his cabin next to her but did not recall to have seen her once. To me - if we take for truth all of the above - I count the exact same (non) validated parameters to accept the story of the big dog and Mrs Isham as well...
Sorry to say but I am afraid you are doing the same mistake as the people who came up with Miss. Isham had a dog by taking the account of Stunke and then looking which 1st class female passengers did not survive. We know Mrs. Isham had not dog. Aside from that the newspaper with the story from the woman who did not want to leave her dog had mention of a "young lady". Miss. Isham was 50 years old, so not one would call a young woman. There is no eyewitness or lifeboat number mentioned where this incident took place.


Isham was reported to have descended and ascended a lifeboat 'for reasons of her dog'.
Which survivors mentioned it? I do not know one who stated to have seen it or that it happened at their lifeboat.

Here is a clip from the Chicago Tribune from April 21st 1912, no mention of a dog.
Chicago Tribune April 21st 1912.jpg


As for Stunke, actually this is what is stated: "There was another woman fully dressed, with her arms tightly clutching to the body of a shaggy dog." She believed it was a St. Bernard. (There are some newspaper account of her which vary from the length and some mentioned it was a St. Bernard, others had only the part of the "shaggy dog".) According to the Isham had a dog claim, it was a Great Dane by the way.
 

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