Dogs


Feb 2, 2019
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Indeed, miss Isham was 50 and those who knew her believe she might have stayed on the ship voluntarily - without giving any further detail. The newspaper nor her relatives mention the presence of a dog during her journey to and fro France. But just as Stunke (and others) believed that she saw a shaggy St Bernard clutched by a woman, so can a witness easily have mistaken miss Isham for a younger lady too, in the night, blinded by shipslights, in the heck of the disaster, the lowering of lifeboats, the cold, the immense stress hampered by narrowed vision, the scarfs, the thick clothes and the hats... WYSIWIB: what you see is what you believe but that is not always what it really is. Observer's bias versus confounding surrounding... An example:

Elisabeth JA Rothshild refused to ascend from lifeboat 6 to the Carpathia, if her Pomerian was not allowed on board. From this very forum I copy: 'Mrs Rothschild was rescued in lifeboat 6 along with her Pomeranian (one of three dogs that were saved from the Titanic). The dog had apparently gone undetected during the loading of the lifeboats, and during the night as no survivors remembered the canine until the morning of rescue. When the lifeboat came alongside the Carpathia, crew members at first refused to take Mrs Rothschild's dog. She protested that she would not leave the lifeboat until her dog was placed safely in her lap. She held the dog and was hoisted aboard the Carpathia. It was not highly publicized that Mrs Rothschild's dog had been rescued - largely due to the fact that her husband had gone down with the Titanic. The fate of the dog remains a mystery, descendants of Mrs Rothschild claim that it was killed in New York during a fight with another dog, while Argetsinger and Ellison (1995) record that the dog was killed under the wheels of a carriage amidst the confusion at the dock after arrival in New York.'

Note: none of the rescued dogs were mentioned on the Carpathia.


There is also much analogy between the Isham 'Great Dane' story and the Astors' second Airedale who is nowhere mentioned neither. Madeleine Astor mentioned Kitty pacing over the deck, she does not mention their other or second Airedale. Not during the disaster, and not anywhere before it. It is widely suggested and more agreed upon than not, that the Astors had two Airedales accompanying them. The second dog is included in the Titanic dog count (11 or 12). I believe the Astors had not a second Airedale with them. The second Airedale - if witnessed! - is the one of Carter's son and for which he (the father) claimed loss and insurance coverage.

But as you already mentioned too... we will never know for sure...

Good WE
Dirk
 
Mar 18, 2008
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Note: none of the rescued dogs were mentioned on the Carpathia.
Actually the rescued dogs are mentioned aboard Carpathia, some Carpathia passengers and crew members did mentioned them. The Rothschild incident is well known (if you know where to look).

Sorry but I still can not understand the Isham had a dog claim. There are several researches who still are shaking heads of this baseless claim which is coming up like the false photographs online. There is 0 evidence for it to be true yet we have one person after the next one - I am now generally speaking - coming up with it. Joseph Edgette came up with 12 dogs one of it is the one of Isham. Based on what? The same person who has the photographs of the 3 dogs aboard claiming to be Titanic.(Somewhere else it was stated the same photograph was taken aboard Carpathia.)

There is also much analogy between the Isham 'Great Dane' story and the Astors' second Airedale who is nowhere mentioned neither. Madeleine Astor mentioned Kitty pacing over the deck, she does not mention their other or second Airedale. Not during the disaster, and not anywhere before it.
First of all the "Astor's" interviews were mainly given out by her family, Mrs. Astor herself was not willing and in the condition to give any. The 2nd Astor Airedale is mentioned by survivor Mrs. Goldenberg.
 
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Okay, let us rest Isham's Great Dane (LOL).

The Astors did not have a second Airedale, according to me. It is true that Madeleine Force Astor lived rather isolated (or protected) from the outside world for a few years, but in 1918 she cut the connection to her late husband's fortune by getting public again and by marrying childhood friend W. Kick. Fifteen years and two children later she divorced and married the 26 year younger boxer E. Fiermonte, of whom she divorces because of (extreme) intramarital violence. Madeleine suffered a heart condition and died at the age of 47, in 1940 (CA). So basically, Madeleine had about 30 years to tell about the second Airedale. Which she didn't. Her biography states it as follows: 'To escape all of publicity surrounding their nuptials, the Astors went abroad for their honeymoon. They spent time in Egypt and Europe. With Madeleine pregnant with their first child, the couple decided to return to New York on the maiden voyage of the Titanic. They boarded the ship in Cherbourg, France, on April 10, with some of their servants and their dog, Kitty.' And not: their dogs Kitty and ???
All sources, including the Encyclopaedia Titanica's website's biography on Madeleine Force, state the Astors had 1 pet, Kitty.
I believe this overrules the Goldenberg testimonial, who have indeed witnessed a second Airedale, possibly or briefly in the vicinity of JJ Astor as it has been suggested that he openend the kennels: but this was Carter's son's Airedale, not Astor's.

Good weekend! Thanks again, enjoying the great and detailed input
Dirk
 
Mar 18, 2008
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All sources, including the Encyclopaedia Titanica's website's biography on Madeleine Force, state the Astors had 1 pet, Kitty.
I believe this overrules the Goldenberg testimonial, who have indeed witnessed a second Airedale, possibly or briefly in the vicinity of JJ Astor as it has been suggested that he openend the kennels: but this was Carter's son's Airedale, not Astor's.
Sorry but it seems you do not understand. Many parts of Titanic story have come out by years of research. The Goldenberg part is something new. The Astor biography on ET is not final and many biographies had been updated since new sources came up. I am researching Titanic's story for about 30 years now and find always something new. The part about the animals aboard is something I have collected information for years (as did some other researchers).
As for Mrs. Astor, she lost her husband while she was awaiting a child of him. I think this is more trauma than talking of a dog or correcting press reports about only Kitty.
How do you know it was Carters Airedale Mrs. Goldenberg saw?! What is your primary source for it? Mrs. Goldenberg by the way was in the 2nd lifeboat which left the sinking ship which was No. 5. Long before the story about Astor releasing the dogs from the kennels which was close to the end of the sinking.
You do not agree that Mrs. Goldenberg mention a 2nd dog for the Astors but take is as a fact the made up story about Isham?!
 
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Aaron_2016

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Survivor William Greenfields said he was - 'more disturbed by the barks and cries from the dogs than the cries of the people'. Let us hope none of them suffered for long. Reminds me of the many animal transport ships that sank in WW1 e.g. SS Mount Temple sank with over 700 horses drowned, and the SS Armenian sank with over 1,400 mules drowned. The loss of life was high for both humans and animals. There are quite a few memorials to remember the animals lost in wartime.

Animals-In-War-Memorial.jpg
 
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Well there have been days when I've seen things that I liked dogs more than people. Maybe for whatever reason that was one of those days for him. But should a dog take up a space for a person...No. Well ok, maybe some people.
 
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Survivor William Greenfields said he was - 'more disturbed by the barks and cries from the dogs than the cries of the people'. Let us hope none of them suffered for long. Reminds me of the many animal transport ships that sank in WW1 e.g. SS Mount Temple sank with over 700 horses drowned, and the SS Armenian sank with over 1,400 mules drowned. The loss of life was high for both humans and animals. There are quite a few memorials to remember the animals lost in wartime.

View attachment 43730
OMG I didn’t know this. Poor horses and mules :(

That’s a nice memorial. I always wear a purple poppy as well as a red one at Remembrance time.
 
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SmileyGirl

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Well there have been days when I've seen things that I liked dogs more than people. Maybe for whatever reason that was one of those days for him. But should a dog take up a space for a person...No. Well ok, maybe some people.
Yes some people definitely!
 

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10 December 1916: En route from Philadelphia (2 or 3 December) to Brest and Liverpool, Georgic I (Capt. Alexander H. Summers) is shelled and captured by the German merchant raider Möwe 500 mi. ESE of Cape Race. One person is killed in the shelling; the rest of those on board escape safely but are taken prisoner and will be held in a POW camp for the rest of the war. (See 16 December.) After lengthy debate about the fate of the 1200 horses on board (valued at $250,000), Georgic is sunk, taking the horses and a cargo of war supplies (valued at $1,000,000; unclear whether this includes the horses) to the bottom with her. (Sources: The New York Times, various dates in January through April 1917; The World Evening Edition (New York), 17 January 1917; New-York Tribune, 18 January 1917; Admiralty's Merchant Shipping (Losses); de Kerbrech's Ships of the White Star Line; Anderson's White Star; Summers' White Star officer record.)
 
Feb 2, 2019
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Sorry but it seems you do not understand. Many parts of Titanic story have come out by years of research. The Goldenberg part is something new. The Astor biography on ET is not final and many biographies had been updated since new sources came up. I am researching Titanic's story for about 30 years now and find always something new. The part about the animals aboard is something I have collected information for years (as did some other researchers).
As for Mrs. Astor, she lost her husband while she was awaiting a child of him. I think this is more trauma than talking of a dog or correcting press reports about only Kitty.
How do you know it was Carters Airedale Mrs. Goldenberg saw?! What is your primary source for it? Mrs. Goldenberg by the way was in the 2nd lifeboat which left the sinking ship which was No. 5. Long before the story about Astor releasing the dogs from the kennels which was close to the end of the sinking.
You do not agree that Mrs. Goldenberg mention a 2nd dog for the Astors but take is as a fact the made up story about Isham?!
Hello again,

I am not accepting the Isham story as a fact, I wouldn't dare anymore (LOL). The story of lady Isham is not proven and there seem to be no relatives anymore who might contribute with a testimonial based opinion. Nevertheless, as long as the (final) dogcount of the Titanic is unclear or unestablished with certainty - with people recognizing the muzzle of a mystery dog in a collapsible lifeboat - why should we not accept then what Joanna Stunke saw from the Bremen? Okay, agreed 100%, you have a point, there is no reason whatsoever to claim Stunke saw miss Isham floating amidst the surface debris field, but she and some others I believe, believed they saw a "shaggy dog", or even a St Bernard. Can you please explain me then, why the mystery dog in the collapsible is considered a fact? And not a mere artefact or some early photograph grain inpurety caused by harsh temperature conditions and salt water? The "animal" even has a red arrow pointing to him!!?? And why is the opinion of Mrs Stunke a priori wrong and therefore a fur coat (apparently considered as such by researchers?).
As a scientist in disaster medicine & management I don't understand the fundamentals for this kind of decisioneering. Or you start with an H1 that what is testified is true unless otherwise proven, or you state as H1 that every testimonial is false unless proven true. But you don't mix starting acceptances from black to white in the same (kind of) retrospective analysis of data...
And, of course Mrs Madeleine Talmadge Force was NOT in the mood to correct or to comment on the amount of Airedales they had on board of the Titanic, that would be insane (btw she did not communicate with the press for years I believe) when she just lost her husband, with a 5 mo pregnancy in her belly... But the lady lived on for 30 years!!!!! She remarried twice, she got more children than just this "Titanic baby", she had grandchildren (who still live today). She has had some or plenty opportunity to share a little or much on what happened April 15th - and way before - with young family members around... Why not? What I am tempting now, is to contact relatives of the Astor dynasty, and if they are willing to answer me, I will ask them what they recall of stories told by grandmother... After all, the love of JJ Astor for a dog, especially in the early nineties - was highly exceptional! I did not cross yet another story about such devotion for a dog (with such financial implications in Egypt), so this might have been something very noble, worth telling grandchildren, about the exceptional grandfather they had... I remember stories of soldiers guarding bridges in the Alps, dodging and leaping away to avoid howling Stuka raids - and it was nothing else but tales from my granddads... But I remember them as if I was part of it...
So let us make a deal, I sincerely hope that an Astor-Force relative is willing to answer me. If I come up with something and I am allowed to share it: I will honestly do so!

Sincerely,
Dirk
 
Feb 2, 2019
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Well there have been days when I've seen things that I liked dogs more than people. Maybe for whatever reason that was one of those days for him. But should a dog take up a space for a person...No. Well ok, maybe some people.
One of the most famous stories about this dilemma - accepting a dog on board of a vessel over a human - is the evacuation of Athens. You certainly learned sometimes about the battle of Thermopyles (the battle at the "hot sources"), where the Spartan King Leonidas, together with 300 of his Spartans and some 700, perhaps 1,000, Thespians, blocked the Persian invasion of king Xerxes. In what is reputed or famous today for being one of the most famous last stands. King Leonidas did sacrifice his life and the life of his men to give the people of Athens the time to evacuate to the island of Salamis. General (or Admiral) Xanthippes (the father of famous Pericles, "the founder of Athens") led an armada of trimeres to evacuate, to rescue from the Persian invader, as much Athenians as possible. The Athenians had gathered in the port and on the beaches, with their belongings and livestock, but by order of the general all had to be left aside. Nothing else but human soles were allowed to board the trimeres. The general himself had a dog he loved very much. And he was much in doubt if his dog was to occupy the place of 1 Athenian. So he refused his dog on board and explained the animal that it should run free, over the mountains, and wait or search for him. However, instead the dog leaped into the sea and followed the trimere of the general. The distance between Athens and Salamis was impossible for a dog to overcome, but the animal succeeded in its effort, encouraged by the shouting Athenians on board. Even the general started to believe that this incredible dog would succeed in its effort.
When the trimere beached at Salamis, the general leaped out of the boat and rushed towards his beloved dog, only to find that the dog was dying in his arms from deadly exhaustion... The general was in very deep grief, he burried his dog on the spot and a monument was erected.
Till today, this place on the beach of Salamis is known as "kynossema", which translates as "statue of the dog"...

Sincerely,
Dirk
 
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Feb 2, 2019
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OMG I didn’t know this. Poor horses and mules :(

That’s a nice memorial. I always wear a purple poppy as well as a red one at Remembrance time.
Survivor William Greenfields said he was - 'more disturbed by the barks and cries from the dogs than the cries of the people'. Let us hope none of them suffered for long. Reminds me of the many animal transport ships that sank in WW1 e.g. SS Mount Temple sank with over 700 horses drowned, and the SS Armenian sank with over 1,400 mules drowned. The loss of life was high for both humans and animals. There are quite a few memorials to remember the animals lost in wartime.

View attachment 43730
from: The Dogs of Napoleon Bonaparte

Emmanuel, the Comte de Las Cases, was the French historian to whom Napoleon dictated his memoirs. He transcribed Napoleon's recollection of the night after the Battle of Bassano, during his Italian campaign. The general was walking across the battlefield, which was covered with the corpses of those who had fallen just a few hours before. He remembered it this way:

"We were alone, in the deep solitude of a beautiful moonlit night. Suddenly a dog leaped out from under the cloak of a corpse. He came running toward us and then, almost immediately afterward ran back to his dead master, howling piteously. He licked the soldier's unfeeling face, then ran back to us — repeating this several times. He was seeking both help and revenge. I don't know whether it was the mood of the moment, or the place, or the time, or the action in itself, or what — at any rate, it's a fact that nothing I saw on any other battlefield ever produced a like impression on me. I stopped involuntarily to contemplate this spectacle. This man, I said to myself, has friend, perhaps. He may have some at the camp, in his company — and here he lies, abandoned by all except his dog. What a lesson nature was teaching us through an animal. What a strange thing is man! How mysterious are the workings of his sensibility! I had commanded in battles that were to decide the fate of a whole army, and had felt no emotion. I had watched the execution of manoeuvres that were bound to cost the lives of many among us, and my eyes had remained dry.

And suddenly I was shaken, turned inside out, by a dog howling in pain!"
 
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Hello, thanks for you reply.

Can you please explain me then, why the mystery dog in the collapsible is considered a fact?
No I can not, as it has not been considered as a fact. I don't know any researcher who took it serious.

And why is the opinion of Mrs Stunke a priori wrong and therefore a fur coat (apparently considered as such by researchers?).
I do not think it is wrong. Some among me believe she saw a "shaggy dog" (the St. Bernard part might be a addition by the press) but some have mentioned the believe it might have been a fur coat which she might have mistaken in the distance for a dog.

So let us make a deal, I sincerely hope that an Astor-Force relative is willing to answer me. If I come up with something and I am allowed to share it: I will honestly do so!
That would be great, thanks!
 
Nov 14, 2005
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One of the most famous stories about this dilemma - accepting a dog on board of a vessel over a human - is the evacuation of Athens. You certainly learned sometimes about the battle of Thermopyles (the battle at the "hot sources"), where the Spartan King Leonidas, together with 300 of his Spartans and some 700, perhaps 1,000, Thespians, blocked the Persian invasion of king Xerxes. In what is reputed or famous today for being one of the most famous last stands. King Leonidas did sacrifice his life and the life of his men to give the people of Athens the time to evacuate to the island of Salamis. General (or Admiral) Xanthippes (the father of famous Pericles, "the founder of Athens") led an armada of trimeres to evacuate, to rescue from the Persian invader, as much Athenians as possible. The Athenians had gathered in the port and on the beaches, with their belongings and livestock, but by order of the general all had to be left aside. Nothing else but human soles were allowed to board the trimeres. The general himself had a dog he loved very much. And he was much in doubt if his dog was to occupy the place of 1 Athenian. So he refused his dog on board and explained the animal that it should run free, over the mountains, and wait or search for him. However, instead the dog leaped into the sea and followed the trimere of the general. The distance between Athens and Salamis was impossible for a dog to overcome, but the animal succeeded in its effort, encouraged by the shouting Athenians on board. Even the general started to believe that this incredible dog would succeed in its effort.
When the trimere beached at Salamis, the general leaped out of the boat and rushed towards his beloved dog, only to find that the dog was dying in his arms from deadly exhaustion... The general was in very deep grief, he burried his dog on the spot and a monument was erected.
Till today, this place on the beach of Salamis is known as "kynossema", which translates as "statue of the dog"...

Sincerely,
Dirk
I am familar with the battle of Thermopylae. Its the classic stand and do your duty saga of history. But I didn't know that aspect of the story about the generals dog and the evacuation. Thanks for posting it...very interesting.
 

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