Due 16th 4 PM


Dec 2, 2000
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Aaaaah, Phillips did wear two hats. He sent passenger messages as his marconi job and did not need instruction for that, but he did not send Titanic ship related messages unless advised to do so by Captain or crew, right? I mean he did not post the ice messages on the board, the Captain or crew did that, right?

But saying that you are correct Dave Gittins, perhaps the message was sent a tad bit early due to the earlier problems with the marconi equipment and Phillips merely decided to send it early and on his own.

Wait....wouldnt waste the custard pie!?!

Maureen :)
 

John M. Feeney

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2000
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Eh? Nah, I think Dave's pulling our leg with that one. I mean, we know Phillips (or Bride) did literally *send* the message. But would either of them have the 'cheek' to originate it?

I can imagine this: "Say, OM, do you know we're ... er, um ... 1,284 [that's it!] miles east of you right now, and guess what? We'll be arriving in just about 4 hours. Really!!" ;^)

Is that partly what Bride meant by "Many funny things were said that night"? :)
(Make mine key lime, and we've got a deal on the pie.)

But seriously, the message just doesn't add up -- no way, no how, uh-uh. If they had sent it early, they weren't there yet, so they couldn't gauge time or speed against that. Besides, they weren't going fast enough to get there by *then*. And if they were planning on being "there" when they finally did get there, they'd never be able to make it to the other "there" in time for the alternate "then"! Capiche? :)

Cheers,
John
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Hmmmmm, wait. "..in just 4 hours" 4 hours from what?

The "by wireless" section title states that this was "SANDY HOOK, on APRIL 14 (MARCONI)"

Titanic's position at 2:15 am (on April 14th) was 1284 (or whatever) miles east of New York.

2:15am (14th) to 2:15am on the (15th) is 24 hours.
2:15am (15th) to 2:15am on the (16th) is 24 hours.
2:15am (16th) to 4:00pm on the (16th) is 13 3/4hr

That is 61 3/4 hrs to travel 1284 miles.

1284/61.75 equals 20.8 mph.
((1284*5280)/6080)/6 1.75 equals 18 nautical miles per hour

But if it is 61 3/4 hrs to travel 1084 miles, then...

1084/61.75 equals 17.5 mph.
((1084*5280)/6080)/6 1.75 equals 15.25 naut.miles per hour

I know that nautical miles and miles are different but I am not sure how, so hopefully I have done that here.

As far as Key Lime, love that stuff, but I think that Gittins is keeping the pie to himself. Got an email from the dog offline and the dog says that Dave never ever ever shares pie. (SMILE)

And this may sound totally impossible, but I think after my week, I understood what you just said.

When Titanic left its last stop and headed for the open ocean, what were the total number of expected miles to be traveled? How many did they travel each day that is reported? How many does that leave from that last position to get to NY? to get to Sandy Hook? to get to the horizon of Sandy Hook, as dave Brown has said that even sighting on the horizon is counted as an arrival?

What are your thoughts?

Dave Gittins, what do you think and have I figured the nautical miles thingy (difference) correctly?
 

John M. Feeney

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2000
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Hi, Maureen!

Sorry. I was just kidding about the four hours part -- portraying Jack Phillips as a Marconi version of "class clown". (No offense intended, naturally.) Just threw in the "4 hours" as a red herring "explanation" for the 4 P.M. portion of that message.

But the conversion you did above, I would have assumed unnecessary. To my own way of thinking, any announcement from the ship would *already* be expressed as nautical miles, since that's all they used for navigation. (I could be wrong.)

My Great Circle calculator gives about 1623 nautical miles from Fastnet Light to the "corner" (at 42N, 47W). That's in International nautical miles, actually, not U.K. nautical miles, but they're *very* close in definition. From the Corner to Ambrose Light would be around 1084 miles (nautical), and 1090 to Sandy Hook Light.

The problem with the Titanic ("By Wireless") message is that they wouldn't have reached that 1284-mile distance from Sandy Hook until about 12:15 P.M, on the 14th -- 10 hours later than the supposed transmission time. But from there, the required average speed for the remainder of the voyage would have been about 25 knots. Just not do-able.

Titanic's funnels -- rising roughly 84 feet above the navigation lights, thus approximately 149 feet total above the water line, *could* have just come within range of visibility at a distance of about 16-1/2 nautical miles, assuming perfect viewing conditions. But just to cut to the chase, that's only about 45 minutes of travel time for Titanic in open water (at 22 knots).

The best case scenario that can be constructed -- based on her known distances at various times -- just doesn't allow anything close to that arrival time, whatever is meant by "arrival".

Cheers,
John
 
Jan 5, 2001
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Hi Maureen, John!

Adding some of my own thoughts for variety(! :)

You asked: When Titanic left its last stop and headed for the open ocean, what were the total number of expected miles to be traveled?

I'd guess 2,894 miles, as that was Olympic's maiden voyage mileage (or 2,889 miles); the former fits perfectly her average speed. That's from Daunt Rock to Ambrose Light.

How many did they travel each day that is reported?

484 miles (April 11th start until April 12th noon)
519 miles (April 12th noon until April 13th noon)
546 miles (April 13th noon until April 14th noon)
260 miles (April 14th noon until April 14th 11.40)

Speeds are (respectively) 20.5 knots, 21 knots, 22.1 knots and 22.3 knots over the ground. Adding these numbers up we get 1,809 miles for the wreck's location from Daunt Rock (I *think* it was), which I understand has been confirmed by experts. So that would leave about 1,085 miles left.

(The first 386 mile figure commonly reported, e.g. by Eaton & Haas, cannot be correct. If it was, Titanic would have needed to maintain 30 knots from noon April 12th to April 14th 11.40 p.m. to get to where her wreck is!)

How many does that leave from that last position to get to NY? to get to Sandy Hook?

It seems 1,085 from the calculations I've seen, which roughly seems to fit in, but otherwise that's a rough estimate based on Olympic's mileage.

Just some of my own thoughts:

Titanic could have made April 16th 4 p.m. *if* she had made about an average of 22.65 knots over the ground from Queenstown to New York; but the longer they left it to accelerate sharply, the further the arrival time slipped away from Titanic's grasp. I'd say 8 p.m. New York time was possible for an arrival at a good full speed, at Ambrose light. (Olympic once got in at 10 p.m. in 1911.)

If there was an attempt to beat Olympic, it must have been based on her maiden voyage time, because Titanic was lagging far behind Olympic's fastest crossing. As far as I know, Olympic's record for a daily run was 23 knots over the ground westbound when she burned coal, and 24.01 knots over the ground westbound when she was given oil in 1919/20.

Best regards,

Mark.
 
M

Markus Philipp

Guest
Hello Maureen, John, Mark, all!

nice to see all of you again being busy with calculating miles and knots, which is my favourite interest about Titanic.
"Unfortunately" you solved all problems already, so there is nothing left for me. Just some small remark.
John, you wrote: "From the Corner to Ambrose Light would be around 1084 miles (nautical), and 1090 to Sandy Hook Light."
There might some new confusion arise after everything luckily has been clarified about crazy "1284" miles.
Careful, probably just Corner and Place of collision have been switched.

For my own calculations I use the wreckage, 41°44' N and 49°57' W as place of collision. The real place might have been one or two miles away, which we cannot find out.
Thus we have: Corner (42/47) to collision: 133 miles
Position of Ambrose is 40°27' N, 73°50 W
Distance from collision to Ambrose: 1083 Miles.

From Corner to Ambrose we then have 1216 miles.

Another question about Nantucket Lightship:
As I read the liners first passed Nantucket light ship. From there they went to NY, or Boston or any place.
Nantucket is just on the way, and the distance will hardly change, but a little bit.
From a modern nautical chart I got this position of Nantucket Lightship: 40°30' N and 69°25' West.
(There are three more in that region, hope I got the right one, two of them are fare out of the way).

Revised calculation with Nantucket on the way:
collision to Nantucket: 883 miles
Nantucket to Ambrose: 202 miles
Collision to Ambrose: 1085 miles (i.s.o.) 1083 miles.

It's not essential, but it might explain small variations of figures.
Now my final question: Is the today position of Nantucket Light-ship the same as it was 1912?

Best Regards

Markus
 
Dec 2, 2000
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John, Mark and Markus,

Sorry to drop off like that but been a little busy with things.

Thanks to all of you. John, I think that Mark covered my concern and expressed it better.

Markus, glad you love these mile things. I think it is fun to work at the logic of things.

This whole thread started as a deep look at "who" may have published the idea of the day early arrival and was it possible. I personally am very interested in the thoughts being expressed here.
Maureen.
 
Jan 5, 2001
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I *think* the Nantucket Lightship is in the same position but I am not sure.

Hopefully we can continue a good conversation, all of us.

Markus, check the old thread on Olympic's fastest crossing, there's *new* info. there.

Best regards,

Mark.
 

John M. Feeney

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2000
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Maureen: Thanks for that clarification. I *was* getting ready to pout. (Just kidding.) :)

Markus: Glad you caught that. You're absolutely right, of course. (Boy, did I screw that up!)

OK, that *should* have been -- using an Earth-based (elliptical) Great Circle calulator, mind you (the rhumb line distance would be slightly greater) --

From Ambrose Light (currently at 40º27'39"N, 73º49'36"W):

-- c. 1084 miles to the 90/92 Collision Site
-- c. 1082 miles to the wreck locale

(It's really only about a one-mile difference, but rounding throws it off.)

Sandy Hook Light is roughly 8 nautical miles further than Ambrose Light. (It's along the way.) So it's 1092 Nmi. from the 90/92 position and 1090 Nmi. from the wreck locale.

Another potential source of error comes from the fact that I'm using the current location (from Microsoft Terra-Server's topographic maps) of the Ambrose Light Station, now a fixed platform! Since it was previously a light *vessel*, there may be a slight difference in the present-day location. (Unfortunately, I have no access to the actual 1912 coordinates; wish I did!)

Cheers!
 
Dec 2, 2000
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See John I just knew you were pouting over there. (SMILE)

Okay, this is very interesting. 1084 miles to the 90/92 Collision Site and 1082 miles to the wreck locale and we do not yet have the coordinates for the SOS position.

But it is still my understanding that the position date/time stamp is April 14, 1912 at 2:15am. At that day and time, Titanic was about 61 3/4 hours away from reaching NY at 4pm on the 16th. And not close to the area of collision or wreck site.

If the last time the distance traveled was set to zero was at midnight AND the distance traveled from that point was 260 miles to the place where Titanic stopped AND the "position" taken at midnight was radioed at 2:15am was 1284 miles, THEN the Titanic traveled approximately 50-60 miles from their last midnight position until the message was actually sent AND they traveled about 200 miles after that to the point of collision. The Collision point is said to be at 1092 to SANDY POINT. And 1092 to SANDY POINT is a possible run for an arrival on the 16th.

That is DO-able, right?

Another thing I have never heard is that the distance from the wreck sight is 1090 to SANDY HOOK AND in 1990/1992 it was decided that the distance from collision was 1092. The wreck site is certain and I knew that. But the part that is mentioned that there was a decision to accept the 1092 distance as the collision sight...who made that decision and upon what was it based?

Also, just two cents worth, but it seems that I have heard or read that the SOS position and the wreck are about 13 miles in difference.

This is all very interesting.

So given the wreck site coordinates as correct and that the SOS was 13 miles "off", I wonder if the actual collision coordinates were more like 1075 Nmi to SANDY HOOK, SOS more like 1077 Nmi to SANDY HOOK, and wreck site still 1090 Nmi to SANDY HOOK.

The reason that I say this is that there seems to be some thought to the fact that the ship continued straight two miles after collision, when the evidence seems to indicate that there was a maneuver to "port round" the berg. A ship 882 ft long traveling at close to 22.3 ground speed with passengers and other weight..I think would take some time to stop and a vehicle turning in a hard turn can actually have its outside to the turn speed up in that turn. I think that Titanic traveled in a U-turn perhaps not on its same track but a wide turn back in the dirrection it came. Taking it further away from NY and not closer.

Why is this important to this discussion, because I believe the Titanic was closer to NY by a few miles when the collision occured. And I believe that the ship could have made it reasonably by the evening of the 16th. I believe that Wilde was the senior officer on watch at 2:15am on April 14th with 3rd officer Pitman and 5th officer Lowe as junio officers and I think that Jewell and Symons were the lookouts at 2:15am when the message was sent based on what I have read in books. So, I think that Wilde as Senior officer of the watch or Captain Smith requested that Phillips or Bride send the message. I do not think it came from Ismay or Franklin, although Ismay may have been eagerly pushing for the earlier arrival aboard the ship, I believe that the captain or the officer of the watch requested that the information be sent. Perhaps based on a shipboard brain storming meeting of Andrews, Ismay and Smith that we will never know about, but regardless, I think that the crew had to author those types of messages and I do not believe that the marconi employees who barely knew the crew were authorized to wire ship navigational related messages of their choosing.

Just my two cents.
Maureen.
 

John M. Feeney

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2000
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Mark (and all):

One thing that had always puzzled me was Phillip Franklin's quote of "1080" miles left, for Titanic to "arrive". I know this is essentially a side issue, but "arrive WHERE"?

He presumably was estimating the distance from the CQD position to whatever he intended as the "destination". But since the CQD position is about 13 nautical miles further along Titanic's track than the 90/92 collision point, Franklin's "1080" would actually be around Sandy Hook (less than a mile past, actually).

1080 miles (Franklin's) + 13 (to actual position) = 1093 miles. (Sandy Hook was 1092 miles.)

Is this perhaps the "horizon" David mentioned -- viewable from southern Manhattan (especially from the taller buildings)?

Cheers,
John
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Interesting John. The US Capitol Building is 8 stories tall (80 feet) and you can see it from many points in Washington. How tall were the stacks and ship...I believe someone said they were about 149 feet above the water, how far off could a ship be and be able to see it given normal conditions in Manhatten as it "arrived"?
 

John M. Feeney

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2000
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Maureen wrote: "If the last time the distance traveled was set to zero was at midnight AND the distance traveled from that point was 260 miles to the place where Titanic stopped ..."

Whoa. Hold up there, pilgrim! :)

That 260 miles was Mark's supplied figure for the distance traveled between *Noon* ship's time (10:10 AM New York Time) on the 14th -- not *midnight* -- and the 11:40 PM (ship's time) collision. That throws your following few sentences off wildly.

The 90/92 collison site is just a set of Latitude/Longitude coordinates determined during that Re-appraisal -- the long awaited "re-trial" (as it were) of Stanley Lord and the Californian. I just calculated distances from that using software I have. That position *is* directly on the S86W course Titanic was said to last be following (or at least the course line that intersects with the CQD position). The actual wreck location is slightly south (by W) of there, due to drift prior to the sinking.

The wreck location we know for sure; the 90/92 collision point is just an estimate. (But it's almost the same distance anyway, so it makes very little difference.)

Sandy Hook Light is roughly 8 nautical miles further west than Ambrose Light. It's about 1092 Nmi. from the 90/92 position and 1090 Nmi. from the wreck site. Since the CQD position is about 13 miles closer to Sandy Hook than the 90/92 position, the distance from the CQD position to Sandy Hook is about 1079 nautical miles.

But as for the message, I wouldn't even guess at this point. It's just too nonsensical to figure out. Did they really send it at 2:15 A.M.? Ya got me -- they certainly weren't anywhere near that *close* yet at 2:15. And by the time they were that close, they could never have made it "in" by 4 P.M. on the 16th. The ship just couldn't go that fast.

Cheers,
John
 
Dec 2, 2000
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But even with my mistake the question is still there...if Titanic was traveling at 22.3 Knots and it "port round" the ice berg, it would eventually turn from facing west to facing nearly north east, how long does it take a fully loaded vehicle to stop on a paved street? How long does it take a big ship nearly fully loaded to stop? If it were going nearly directly westward, how much further west would the ship travel if it was porting round something at 22.3 knots?

I just do not think that the collision was east of the wreck. I think it was west of the wreck.

I need to go for now.

Maureen.
 
M

Markus Philipp

Guest
Hello Maureen,

Nice that you got something to do for me.
Some time ago I tried to work out a relation between the wreckage position and the place of the collision. And it gave me a lot of headache. At the end I found the distance should not be more than 2 miles.
First I worked out the way the ship need to stop.
For this I used formulas which apply for things below water. Cal Haines told me this is not correct, but I think for rough estimation this will do. And I found it took Titanic between 1.5 and 2 miles to stop, with engines stopped, not reversed.

Now what about the drift:
There are several currents in question. I got a nautical chart of that region. Gulf stream and Labrador Current meet there, and the boundaries are not fixed. In that nautical chart I found:
Gulf stream: 0.5 .. 1 kn East; Labrador current: 0.7 knot South-South-East; Slope-Water-Current: 0.5 kn East;
(By the way, What does Slope-Water mean? Could not find that in my dictionary.)
Now we can play with these various currents.
Titanic hit the berg, run 1.7 miles west to stop.
Then, with 1 knot gulf east 2.5 hours she will go back 2.5 miles east.
Result: Collison was 0.8 miles west of the wreck, as you suppose.

Now let's do the same with the Labrador, 0.7 kn SSE: This is about 0.3 knots East. Again Titanic hits the berg, and needs 1.7 miles to stop. Now she is driven back just 0.8 miles to east. And we find the collision was 1 mile east of the wreck. Which of this assumptions is right, i don't know.
I think it is not essential. Therefore in my calculation i always use as place for collision 41°44' N and 49°57' West with an uncertanty of 1, maybe 2 miles, not more.

About the U-Turn:
Cal Haines sent me some time ago diagrams with turning cycles of ship's. From this one can say the diameter of a turning cycle is about 4 ship's lengths. In case of Titanic this would we 1000 meters, about half a nautical mile. The circumference will be 1.5 miles then. With 1.7 miles Titanic will return to the place were she has come from.

best regards

Markus
 

Dave Hudson

Member
Apr 15, 2011
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I don't know much about this sort of stuff, but is it possble that "4 PM" was Titanic's ETA at the Nantucket Lightship? I'm probably off base. I have no idea where the light ship would have been in relation to NY, but still...

Of course, it could be that the actual New York arrival time was set for 9pm 4/16 and somewhere between the telegraph operator and the editor the 9 got misread as a 4.

Or something.

David
 
M

Markus Philipp

Guest
Hello David,

Nantucket Lightship was 202 Miles before NY.
The distance between collision point and Nantucket is 883 N. With 22.5 knots Titanic would have had to travel 39 hrs 15 mins = 1 day 15 hrs.

The collison occured at 10.13 NYT. (Boxhall gave the time relation 11.46 TIT = 10.13 NYT). Now count from that point 1 day 15 hrs and we have Tuesday 1 p.m. (to avoid headache, go two days ahead and 9 hrs back). There was no problem to reach Nantucket 3 hours before that mystery 4 pm date. There is nothing spetacular about that.

In a book about Blue Riband i found a table with all Blue Riband times. The arival times were taken at Sandy Hook til July 1908 (Lusitania).
One year later Lusitania has beaten herself. This time she arrived at Ambrose. Sandy Hook does not appear anymore in these tables.

I can not prove, but from my feeling i think Ambrose is the point of real public interest. No passenger will get off at Nantucket.

Best Regards

Markus
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Hey there Markus.

"Gulf stream: 0.5 .. 1 kn East; Labrador current: 0.7 knot South-South-East; Slope-Water-Current: 0.5 kn East; (By the way, What does Slope-Water mean? Could not find that in my dictionary.)"

Hmmmm, I think that SLOP WATER, is where there is like...hmmmm...confu sed sea...does that make sense. Like the sea does not know where it does. I would imagine that it means the current where the "rubber meets the road sort of"...Gulf meets Labrador. It is not like the Gulf nor the Labrador currents, but is unique.

But get this from a better person than I.
 

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