Duff Gordon Goofs

M

Michael Guntli

Member
I posted thins on another site and thought I'd share it here as well:


How can one couple mess up so badly? Well the Duff Gordons did it.

1st goof- They left on a boat designed for40- just 12 people in all. The boat was life boat 1 and they left with 5 passengers, 7 crew in all.
2nd good- After the ship sank Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon offered to replace the kits of the crew rowing- this was considered a bribe to not return to the scene of the sinking. It was an innocent gesture, but ruined the Duff Gordons.
3rd goof- Despite having plenty of room they failed to return to the scene- Lady Duff Gordon would have objected anyway- she was laying on the bottom of the boat throwing up all night.
4th goof- On Board the Carpthia They insisted on having a picture taken as a souvenir of the experience. Why is anyones guess. Dr. McGee on the Carpathia insisted on having them smile for the picture despite the fact that many people died- This upset many of the surviving widows who were watching and was a momentary lapse in taste.
 
Michael Guntli said:
I posted thins on another site and thought I'd share it here as well:


How can one couple mess up so badly? Well the Duff Gordons did it.

1st goof- They left on a boat designed for40- just 12 people in all. The boat was life boat 1 and they left with 5 passengers, 7 crew in all.
2nd good- After the ship sank Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon offered to replace the kits of the crew rowing- this was considered a bribe to not return to the scene of the sinking. It was an innocent gesture, but ruined the Duff Gordons.
3rd goof- Despite having plenty of room they failed to return to the scene- Lady Duff Gordon would have objected anyway- she was laying on the bottom of the boat throwing up all night.
4th goof- On Board the Carpthia They insisted on having a picture taken as a souvenir of the experience. Why is anyones guess. Dr. McGee on the Carpathia insisted on having them smile for the picture despite the fact that many people died- This upset many of the surviving widows who were watching and was a momentary lapse in taste.
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Ok first off, Sir Cosmo, Lucille, and Miss Francatelli were all watching the boats being loaded. Lucille was asked several times by the crew to get into a boat but refused as she did not want to go without Sir Cosmo. Eventually, Lucille asked if they should so something and Sir Cosmo replied not without orders first. Murdoch was loading boat #1 and said man the Emergency boat to some crew members that were standing by. Sir Cosmo asked "May we get in" and the officer replied "I wished you would or would be very glad if you would". They were just simply obeying orders.

Second, one of the crew members (Robert Pusey) mentioned that they had lost their kit (everything they had) on the ship when it went down, plus their wages stopped as well. Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon was kind enough to issue the notes to the crew members to replace them. There was no bribery of any kind that the men should not row back to pick up people in the water.


They were not the only boat who didn't return to the rescue, many were afraid that there would be suction caused by the sinking ship or the boat getting swamped.

Finally, as to the picture, Sir Cosmo wanted to get everybody together concerning the check that would be give to start their kit and to make sure every crew member got one, along with the fact that he had asked Hendrickson to get all the men together for him. At the time that was going on a friend the met on board snapped a picture and then some other passengers started snapping some pictures as well. Nothing to do with insulting anybody that lost a loved one on the Titanic.
 
Michael McGuffin said:
Ok first off, Sir Cosmo, Lucille, and Miss Francatelli were all watching the boats being loaded. Lucille was asked several times by the crew to get into a boat but refused as she did not want to go without Sir Cosmo. Eventually, Lucille asked if they should so something and Sir Cosmo replied not without orders first. Murdoch was loading boat #1 and said man the Emergency boat to some crew members that were standing by. Sir Cosmo asked "May we get in" and the officer replied "I wished you would or would be very glad if you would". They were just simply obeying orders.

Second, one of the crew members (Robert Pusey) mentioned that they had lost their kit (everything they had) on the ship when it went down, plus their wages stopped as well. Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon was kind enough to issue the notes to the crew members to replace them. There was no bribery of any kind that the men should not row back to pick up people in the water.


They were not the only boat who didn't return to the rescue, many were afraid that there would be suction caused by the sinking ship or the boat getting swamped.

Finally, as to the picture, Sir Cosmo wanted to get everybody together concerning the check that would be give to start their kit and to make sure every crew member got one, along with the fact that he had asked Hendrickson to get all the men together for him. At the time that was going on a friend the met on board snapped a picture and then some other passengers started snapping some pictures as well. Nothing to do with insulting anybody that lost a loved one on the Titanic.
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I go by what I read- no book I've read states that they weren't sue about leaving but rather they asked, several books state that about Molly Brown. I think your slightly confusing facts.
 
I go by what I read- no book I've read states that they weren't sue about leaving but rather they asked, several books state that about Molly Brown. I think your slightly confusing facts.
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Is that right? Whichever books you've been reading, is providing you with incorrect information. Not every book on the Titanic gets it's facts correct - there are many which state incorrect info and myths along the way.

Actually, Michael McGuffin is spot on and his post hit the nail on the head. So I'm afraid you're the one who is slightly confusing facts.
 
Jason D. Tiller said:
Is that right? Whichever books you've been reading, is providing you with incorrect information. Not every book on the Titanic gets it's facts correct - there are many which state incorrect info and myths along the way.

Actually, Michael McGuffin is spot on and his post hit the nail on the head. So I'm afraid you're the one who is slightly confusing facts.
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Thanks Jason, I appreciate that, and I totally agree with you. Michael, you might want to really be careful on what books and research you read. Not everything as Jason stated is correct. One of the best things I can recommend you to start reading
is the inquiries. I haven't seen Randy Bingham post in quite some time but he knows about everything you can think of on the Duff Gordons.
 
Michael McGuffin said:
One of the best things I can recommend you to start reading
is the inquiries.
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These are the inquiry testimonies from survivors who were aboard Lifeboat No.1:


Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon:

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 10 | Testimony of Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon (First Class Passenger, SS Titanic)

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 11 | Testimony of Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon, recalled


Lady Lucille Duff Gordon:

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 11 | Testimony of Lady Duff-Gordon (First Class Passenger, SS Titanic)


George Symons:

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 7 | Testimony of George Symons (Lookout, SS Titanic)

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 7 | Testimony of G. Hogg, W. Perkis and G. Symons, taken together.

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 10 | Testimony of George Symons (Lookout, SS Titanic)


Charles Hendrickson:

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 5 | Testimony of Charles Hendrickson (Leading Fireman, SS Titanic)

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 10 | Testimony of Charles Hendrickson, recalled


James Taylor:

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 10 | Testimony of James Taylor (Fireman, SS Titanic)


Charles Stengel:

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 11 | Testimony of Charles E. Stengel (First Class Passenger, SS Titanic)


Samuel Collins:

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 11 | Testimony of Samuel Collins (Fireman, SS Titanic)


Frederick Sheath:

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 11 | Testimony of Frederick Sheath (Trimmer, SS Titanic)


Albert Horswell:

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 10 | Testimony of Albert E. J. Horswell (Able Bodied Seaman, SS Titanic)


Robert Pusey:

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 11 | Testimony of Robert W. Pusey (Fireman, SS Titanic)
 
Exactly Thomas, thank you!

[Moderator's note: Edited to remove unnecessary quote-back of entire preceding message. MAB]
 
There had been about 20 people around boat No. 1 mainly crew and only 2 women (Miss Francatelli & Lady Duff-Gordon) after boast Nos. 7, 5 & 3 had been lowered. 12 of them were placed into the boat No. 1 and as there were no more and time was running out, the order to lower was given.
 
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No doubt they had a couple of moments of poor taste in there but I hardly think it can be considered their "goof" that their lifeboat left with only a fraction of the maximum capacity on board; nor is it their fault that they didn't row back for survivors. They were not part of the crew and therefore had no say in the matter. This cannot be one of those guilt by association things, the responsibility for launching lifeboats that weren't full must lay with the crew members who lowered them.

Also, as cold hearted as it may be, it was also sensible to not row back immediately for survivors. Imagine hundreds of desperate people trying to clamber aboard one or two lifeboats - in all likelihood, boats would have been overturned and the people in them would have suffered the same fate as those who were already in the water.

So yes, the Duff Gordon's were lucky and they may have behaved a little badly, but I think an outright criticism of them is a bit over the top.

Cheers,
Adam.
 
Jason D. Tiller said:
Is that right? Whichever books you've been reading, is providing you with incorrect information. Not every book on the Titanic gets it's facts correct - there are many which state incorrect info and myths along the way.

Actually, Michael McGuffin is spot on and his post hit the nail on the head. So I'm afraid you're the one who is slightly confusing facts.
Click to expand...
Well heres the thing- most of the books use the actual inqueries, and more, some interviewed servivors- you guys obviously don't realize the research is confuing. I own 12 books on the subject. I've never mis constuded info. All the books state that the Duff Gordons asked to leave, all the books state that duff Gordon offered to replace the kits and that people though of it as a bribe and ALL the books spacificlly state that a picture was taken, the day AFTER Sir Cosmo paid up and that it was a seperate situation. Many of these authors actually spoke with members of the THS and got this information. Soo I disagree with everyone in this case given the facts hhave been clearly writen. You can'
t rely on one person then insult others that disagree with you. Sorry, but you seem to side with people on this site. I've studies Titnaic long enough and have read numberous accounts on everything I wrote including from Walter Lord.
 
I actually downloaded both onto a flash drive. The site gives permission to do so.

Moderator's note: Edited to remove unnecessary quote-back of Thomas Ozel's entire message concerning the inquiries. MAB]
 
Michael McGuffin said:
Ok first off, Sir Cosmo, Lucille, and Miss Francatelli were all watching the boats being loaded. Lucille was asked several times by the crew to get into a boat but refused as she did not want to go without Sir Cosmo. Eventually, Lucille asked if they should so something and Sir Cosmo replied not without orders first. Murdoch was loading boat #1 and said man the Emergency boat to some crew members that were standing by. Sir Cosmo asked "May we get in" and the officer replied "I wished you would or would be very glad if you would". They were just simply obeying orders.

Second, one of the crew members (Robert Pusey) mentioned that they had lost their kit (everything they had) on the ship when it went down, plus their wages stopped as well. Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon was kind enough to issue the notes to the crew members to replace them. There was no bribery of any kind that the men should not row back to pick up people in the water.


They were not the only boat who didn't return to the rescue, many were afraid that there would be suction caused by the sinking ship or the boat getting swamped.

Finally, as to the picture, Sir Cosmo wanted to get everybody together concerning the check that would be give to start their kit and to make sure every crew member got one, along with the fact that he had asked Hendrickson to get all the men together for him. At the time that was going on a friend the met on board snapped a picture and then some other passengers started snapping some pictures as well. Nothing to do with insulting anybody that lost a loved one on the Titanic.
Click to expand...

I never stated the others went back, you misread my notes. The autor used the inquiry for most of the bok. That and aA Night To Remeber- one of my favorites. Perhaps you need to read things closer before trying to correct me. Was just giving an example of how they messed up is all.
 
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