ian Hough

Member
Dec 17, 2002
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Could anyone out there please help me with my jigsaw?

I have recently visited the grave of the Duff-Gordons and just in front of their grave I stumbled (literally) across the grave of Lucy's daughter, Esme Stuart (Countess of Halsbury) and her husband Hardinge Goulburn (2nd Earl of Halsbury). To their left is the grave of Elizabeth Adeline Faith (Countess of Halsbury) and her husband John Anthony Harding (3rd Earl of Halsbury). I have also read somewhere that there is a John Anthony Gifford (3rd Earl of Halsbury) Lucys grandson. I am also aware of a Lord Tiverton (Lucys Grandson) and I'm sure I read somewhere that there was a Douglas Anderson related to her as well.

Now I am totally confused and was hoping someone out there could put me straight on who's really who.
Houghie
 
Mar 20, 2000
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Ian,

You have got much of this info from my posts here I feel sure, but I suppose they've been more confusing than helpful. I am glad you got to visit the Duff Gordons' gravesite. The Brookwood Cemetery web page which mentions their grave has been instrumental in alerting people to the fact that they're buried there. I don't appreciate that my picture of the grave has been used without my permission however. The cemetery association who runs that site just plucked it off of ET.

Anyhow, if you check Lucy Duff Gordon's biography page here you will find information on her grandson, Anthony (3rd Earl of Halsbury).

There's also a thread here called "successful and/or famous descendents" and I've gone into the family history there quite a bit. See https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5667/6138.html

There are also numerous Duff Gordon threads that you can access by using the search tool provided.

If you think I can be of any further help, you can contact me privately at [email protected].

Randy
 
Mar 20, 2000
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It has occured to me to mention that in the same plot at Brookwood Cemtery is Cosmo Duff Gordon's devoted nephew Newton Streitfield, the closest to a son that he ever knew. It was a surprise and a comfort to me when I found them buried beside one another.
 
Mar 20, 2000
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On this date in 1931 Cosmo Duff Gordon died at his home in London, age 68, a fine, affectionate man, and one who had suffered much. He was close to his family and just adored his nieces and nephews so it was a huge grief that he was never able to become a father himself. The horrible episode of the Titanic in his life only compounded his sadness.

Exactly four years later in 1935, Lucy Christiana Duff Gordon, Cosmo's beloved but estranged wife, whose busy career and fame unfortunately ruined their marriage, died of breast cancer in a nursing facility in Putney, age 71. Despite her ravaged condition, she was vibrant till the end, laughing with friends and relatives, playing cards, even inquiring after the garden she had left behind in Hampstead Heath. "See to the lilacs," she instructed her grandson.

It's always a day of reflection for me and is particularly special this year since I was able to share the couple's resting place in Brookwood Cemetery, near London, with a group of good friends a couple of weeks ago. Thank you to Brian, Ben, Inger, Eric and Jemma for being with me that day.

Special thanks to Inger for making the hike with me into Hampstead one beautiful evening to see Lucy's former house again, a charming cottage situated on a hill and facing a little wooded square. It was a delight to find it so cheery and with everything abloom.

Randy
 

Inger Sheil

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Feb 9, 1999
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I have the photos of that for you, Randy - will scan and send them on Tuesday, and will have originals in the post for you asap. Also photos of the grave in Brookwood.

A lovely place - and your commentary brought it's past associations with Lucile to life.
 
Aug 2, 2006
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Lucy's Grandson Anthony had 3 children. Clare, Caroline and Adam dose anyone know if Clare and Caroline married so the line lives on? if so who did they marry?
 

lewis orchard

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Feb 25, 2006
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Encyclopedia Titanica visitors and members interested in Lady Duff Gordon may now see a new rotation of Lucile Ltd items at Titanic Branson. The newly installed exhibit displays a Tea Coat, Jacket, Stockings, and a piece of embroidered underskirt.

I would also like to advise all ET members that a number of serious problems have recently arisen concerning the provenance of Lucile items all originating from the same source. I would advise anyone to be extremely careful when purchasing items, particularly from private individuals.
 

Mike Poirier

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Dec 12, 1999
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Hi Lewis
Oh that is appalling news about the provenance of certain items. I imagine that the family of Lady Duff Gordon must be terribly upset. It is a shame that someone would take advantage like that. I hope that person has been brought to task. But with the word Titanic attached, I suppose people dream of fame and fortune and book deals attached. I am sorry to say people who believed that have been horribly disappointed in that hope.
 

lewis orchard

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Feb 25, 2006
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I am not an Encyclopedia Titanica regular, but like many visitors to the site I have found the archived postings, and information extremely useful- especially recently when piecing together events concerning the improper sale of Lucile Items. As the matter is ongoing I will leave any related discussion to others.

On a more positive note I am happy to tell Grant a little about my collection.

I began researching Lucile over 20 years ago, when training as a fashion textile designer. I began with photocopies of pictures and articles for my research, and was given permission to photograph Lucile items in major museum collections. I began to buy published images either in magazines or on postcards, and put together a small library of related books. Eventually I was lucky enough to buy clothing at auctions such as Doyles, Christies, and Sotherbys. Collecting is a fascinating hobby, but just make sure it doesn't become a 24/7 obsession!
 

lewis orchard

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Feb 25, 2006
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I have been contacted by a number of ET members about the problem concerning the provenance of Lucile, and Duff-Gordon items. Please contact me if you have seen items over the past few years that concern you, specifically original Lucile sketches and garments, as this matter is being investigated. Thanks
 

lewis orchard

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Feb 25, 2006
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This original sketch by 'Lucile' C1912 was bought from an individual last year with a provenance that it had been obtained as a gift. It has recently been confirmed as being a sketch that had disappeared from the special collections library of a major British museum. It has been returned to that museum where it belongs with a set of other similar 'Lucile' sketches. We are aware that it had been published by "The Titanic Commutator" who did not know of this problem. If anyone has seen this sketch at any time, or been shown, posted, or e-mailed a copy of it, I would appreciate that you contacted me. All messages are considered confidential.

118809.jpg
 

Mike Poirier

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Dec 12, 1999
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Stolen from a museum!?! My goodness. Was there more than one items stolen? WOW! I wonder what else has been 'sold' that has been stolen?
 
Jan 7, 2002
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When James Cameron last explored Titanic- and one of the Duff Gordon cabins was explored, I always wondered if under the fallen debris and wreckage in the cabin- if any of Lady Duff Gordon's dresses still exisit....
I always wondered how they dressed when on the Titanic- did the styles Lady Lucile wore reflect the syles she designed?
 

Brian Ahern

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Dec 19, 2002
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Hi Tarn - I think somebody else around here could answer your questions better than I could but, in the meantime, I have read in "The It Girls" that Lucy tended to be a bit careless in her own dress. Not slovenly - just more interested in creating beautiful clothes and seeing them on others than in bothering much with her own appearance.

The book also said that she and Miss Francatelli dined in their daytime clothes on April 14th because they felt it was too cold to change into evening wear.
 

lewis orchard

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Feb 25, 2006
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Yes, more than one item has been found to have originated from more than one museum collection.
When it is appropriate to do so I will post further information here.
 
Aug 29, 2000
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It seems this is not a rare occurence in the Titanic, and probably other historical interest communities. Whether or not it is for financial gain, or the inability to resist a highly desirable item for one's own private collection, I know that several Titanic-related things have "gone missing" from both Bayonne, NJ and Halifax over the years. What is terribly sad is that we are all the poorer for the actions of a few. I am very concerned for the safety of the Walter Lord collection in Greenwich- which is, a peerless, and irreplaceable collection. We all lose when such a theft happens, and eventually it will become impossible to get access to precious resources. The Cunard Archive has had to tighten security to an alarming degree.
 

Mike Poirier

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Dec 12, 1999
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I remember an original passenger list from Bertha Watt Marshall disappeared from a Titanic convention. She was so upset with the lack of concern, she was less than happy to discuss the Titanic afterwards. It is a shame that when someone like Mrs. Marshall shares something so valuable, that the proper care and caution was not taken to ensure its safe return to her hands.
 
Aug 29, 2000
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I had a brass Bon Voyage Titanic belt buckle stolen at a lecture once at Electric Boat- of course it was just a recast and worth at the time maybe twenty bucks. But it was a wake up call never to leave anything unattended again at a convention or display. I picture the thief's look of disappointment when he/she found out what the piece was really worth.
Recently I was at Pusey Hall, Harvard in the theatre collection and I practically had a strip search and armed escort to use the materials there. Only one pencil and piece of paper is allowed and a monitor sits at the end of the table while one box at a time is brought in. All outer garments must remain outside. At the time I thought it was excessive but now I realize what some of those clippings and photos and theatre programs are worth and it is a small price to pay to have the inconvenience if it means I can go back in a year's time and see the same wonderful items again.
 

lewis orchard

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Feb 25, 2006
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A problem for everyone to consider in the Internet age is the ability of individuals to create a misleading impression. When considering the credentials of someone and the credibility of what they write, it is worth making the following simple checks:

If the individual claims some kind of qualification, check it. Attendance at a recognized place of learning does not necessarily mean that a course was completed or an academic qualification gained. Qualifications can be bought on the internet, and are meaningless unless checked.

'Award winning' can mean anything from an Oscar, to a 3rd place dog-show prize. Identify what an award is for on Google.

Check claims made by experts. Anyone can enhance the smallest of achievements into considerable ones by using ambiguous language. For example; A 'consultant' could be anything from someone who is a key source of advice for a film or exhibition, to someone who answered an e-mail request for some information from a complete stranger.

The best research is accurately foot-noted, so you can check the source of the information and judge the accuracy of its use for yourself. Check foot-notes. It is often quite surprising how meaningless they are. They can also indicate how an honest mistake was made by an author who has wants to be accurate, and who will be pleased to correct it.

If purchasing an item ask for a provenance. You can then check it. If you think an item may have come from a museum, you can check with them. They cannot always assist but in the case of the sketch above there was a photographic record taken of it before it disappeared.
 

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