English relations with Wales & Scotland in 1912


Feb 14, 2011
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It is clear the relationship between England and Ireland was VERY tense in 1912, and tensions would explode with the 1916 uprising.....

How were the English relations with Wales and Scotland in 1912? Friendly? Tense? Hostile? I do love England, but they have the history of mistreating their neighbors...
Were there any 1912 policies enacted by Parliment that could be construed as being 'anti Welsh, or 'anti Scottish'?
 
May 27, 2007
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Good question. The Lortons are of Scots\Welsh descent. In fact my middle name Lowell which I'm given to understand is Welsh is My Great-Great Grandmother Lorton's maiden name.

How were relations between Scotland, Wales and England in 1912.
 
Dec 29, 2006
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Witney
As England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales were all part of one political entity, the idea of good or bad "international relations" between these four territorial units seems inappropriate. How were relations between Texas, New Mexico, Carolina and Nevada in 1912 - it is a non-question.

However, looked at in the context of the 1912 Home Rule crisis, there was certainly conflict between pro and anti-Irish Home Rulers in all parts of the United Kingdom, this conflict being fueled by sectarian prejudice on both sides. Wales and Scotland were be extremely Protestant in their outlook, and this tended to colour their views on Irish Home Rule (which was described as "Rome Rule"). In 1919 the most vicious anti-Irish Home Ruler - who sent in the Black & Tans and Auxiliaries - was David Lloyd George; he was not an Englishman but a Welshman.
 
May 27, 2007
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/quote{In 1919 the most vicious anti-Irish Home Ruler - who sent in the Black & Tans and Auxiliaries - was David Lloyd George; he was not an Englishman but a Welshman.}

I knew that Wales and Scotland were both protestant. But both also had a history and oral tradition of not liking England in the past. So I could see them feeling a certain sympathy with Ireland. Wales was violently annexed to the English Crown in 1282 when in the translation of the words of one chronicler Wales and her people were ground in to the dust. Of course after that was over centuries later the people of Wales did become part of England, especially after the Tudors took the throne. They were originally from Wales. The Stewart's were from Scotland. So they bonded but not completely. Scotland is still Scotland and Wales is still Wales. Didn't mean to give a history lesson here.
 

Bob Godfrey

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Nov 22, 2002
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Were Scotland and Wales dominated and oppressed by the English in 1912? Were their peoples treated as second-class citizens and denied equal opportunities within the Union? Was the British Government formulating legislation to keep them in their place?

Consider the 7 most powerful men in the land during the first quarter of the twentieth century, those who held the Office of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. 3 were Scots. 1 was Welsh. 1 was Canadian-born of Scots/Irish ancestry. Only 2 of the 7 were English. So the English, comprising 80% of the population of the UK, were most often ruled by Governments headed by men whose background was Scots or Welsh. Not the ideal situation for the English if they had it in mind to mistreat their neighbours ...

Tarn, if you're interested in discriminatory legislation in 1912, you might do better looking at your own side of the Pond.
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Feb 14, 2011
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Hi Bob
It was simply a question, I was not hurling stones at England-If you took offense, my sincere apologies-That was not my intention.
I did not mean to offend. I have several Scottish friends who are not too keen on England, and I have met scores of people from Wales who don't like England-so I was curious of the positive- or negative nature of the English relationship with Wales and Scotland, that existed in 1912. There are some in Scotland, such as Sean Connery who feel the Scottish identity has been oppressed- perhaps his views didn't exist in 1912. Perhaps most Welsh and Scottish citizens have always held a deep love for England- I don't know...I suppose my question had more do with the view of the citizens, as opposed to the government bodies...

Granted things stateside are not perfect- there are still people in the south who hate the north, people on the east that hate the west, people in the midwest that hate the east, etc..

In Canada there are some In Quebec who hold distain for Canada, and desire independence...

I was just curious if there were serious tensions in the UK in 1912, or if the countries of the UK got on famously...
If it is too sensitive a topic to explore, I'll drop it here and now...

and for the record, I love England- My favorite city on this big blue marble is London...
 
May 27, 2007
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Well I hope I didn't start anything. I think neither Tarn nor myself were hurling stones as Tarn but it. He simply asked a question. He said nothing derogatory about England and neither did I. He simply asked a question about relations between England, Wales and Scotland in 1912. I seconded his interest and liked his question because I'm of Scots-Welsh descent so anything about those countries\regions interests me. I meant no disrespect or offense and neither did Tarn. If he wants to drop the subject I'll support that.
 
Jan 28, 2003
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I think much of the perception that it was the English who ruled the roost derives from the fact that the capital of the UK is London, and for that you can probably blame the Romans. Relationships between the nations in the UK are always .. well .. lively, but I think, rather less really fraught than people abroad believe, with the understandable exception of Ireland. The Scots, for example, were enthusiastic Empire-builders for a variety of reasons - some of which were about lack of opportunity in their own country at the time, and some to do with sheer clever entrepreneurship - remember, they didn't live now, before you judge.

But, talking of now, just look and see how many of the UK Government are Scots. Personally, I like and admire my island co-habitants, even if they might sometimes level (what I think) are unfounded accusations at me. Largely because, like most English people, I am a complete mongrel when it comes to descent. The 'English' are, and have always been, a complete melting pot, sometimes happily and sometimes with difficulty. Nobody's perfect.
 

Bob Godfrey

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Tarn, you asked two questions. I have responded to the second, and hopefully answered it convincingly. If not and you want to continue that line of discussion, please do. George, I have no problem with your 'history lesson', except that the Welsh might not agree with your suggestion that they at some time 'became part of England'. :) And note Stanley's comments about the support for and against Home Rule in Ireland. That depended more on which church you attended rather than which side of a border you were born on.
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Dec 29, 2006
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One of the points that I was trying to make, and a point which I think should be underlined, is that in 1912 the United Kingdom ("of Great Britain & Ireland") was at its very peak.

It is most unlikely that the Scots, Welsh or indeed many of the Irish would have seen themselves as anything other than British citizens. In the case of Ireland, the third Home Rule Bill was being pushed through by the Liberal government of Herbert Asquith, and it seemed that he 32 counties of Ireland would soon be enjoying a very large measure of internal self-government within the British union. There was certainly some lively debate (and a lot of posturing) about the Home Rule issue but, in 1912, nobody could have anticipated the Easter Rising and the tragic events which followed it - just as nobody could have imagined that World War I was about to destroy the status quo in Europe and other parts of the World.

If I had lived in 1912 I would probably have been an enthusiastic supporter of the Home Rule Bill, although I would have viewed myself as British rather than Irish, Scottish or Welsh - I would certainly not have regarded myself as "English" .
 
May 27, 2007
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George, I have no problem with your 'history lesson', except that the Welsh might not agree with your suggestion that they at some time 'became part of England'. :)
Your right Bob. I think the only time the Welsh considered themselves part of England was when the Tudors were on the throne. But the Welsh always considered themselves as British Citizens. They also considered themselves true Britains being descended from Romans as well as the original inhabitants of Britain. They very well might be for all I know? Or not.
 
Dec 29, 2006
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Hello George,

I understand your interest in Welsh history, especially if you are partly of Welsh descent. I would not have thought that Lowell was particularly Welsh-sounding. Jones, Davies, Powell, Jenkins, Owen, Price, Vaughan and Roberts are perhaps more typically Welsh in origin. Yes, the Welsh are clearly Britons - they are the Brythonic Celts (or Brythoni) who gave their name to the Roman province of Britannia. Generally speaking, the Brythons lived in southern Britain whereas the Goidels (or Gaels) occupied northern Britain and Ireland. Do the Welsh like the English? Possibly not - but I suspect that, for religious reasons, they have traditionally felt much closer to England than to Ireland.
 
Jan 28, 2003
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The Welsh ... dark Celts? Hmmm, I thought Celts were tall redheads. What about the Silures, people from Portugal, it is thought originally, who came over here maybe 2000 years ago? Frankly, it's all so long ago it hardly matters.
 
Apr 30, 2007
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Tarn

I’m not sure what prompted you to ask your question in the first place but I see no reason why you shouldn’t ask it and why it shouldn’t be answered. Strangely some English people can get a bit prickly about their country’s past behaviour either due to a sense of shame or because they simply don’t accept the inferences in the question. For our International friends let me help clarify the past history and the relationship between the countries today.

OVERVIEW

‘Great Britain’ consists of three territories, England, Wales and Scotland. When you add Northern Ireland we have a combined territorial state, legislated for by a common parliament at Westminster, known as the United Kingdom (UK). Internationally it is the UK that is accorded recognition, not the individual territories. Each territory however retains its own system of municipal or civil (private) law.

ENGLAND & WALES

Although England did conquer Wales around 1200 there is not a great history of bloodshed or uprisings between the two and they became a single constituent unit in the Act of Union in 1535. Today there is a certain non racial social indifference between the people which manifests itself primarily when the two countries meet on the sporting field.

ENGLAND & SCOTLAND

There is more of a bitter history between England and Scotland due to past conflicts and Scottish uprisings. In the Act of 1707 the Kingdom of Great Britain was created when Scotland joined the other two. The majority of Scottish people ‘hate’ the English but in a non aggressive ‘friendly’ way. If you want a good example of this go to a Scotland v England rugby match where the unofficial Scottish national anthem is “flower of Scotland”. This particular song celebrates a rare Scottish victory by Robert the Bruce (a Scottish hero) over the English at the battle of Bannockburn in 1314 and is sung with such passion it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. The Scots have long memories!

ENGLAND & IRELAND

The most tragic history of conflict belongs to England and Ireland. Oliver Cromwell’s bloody suppression of the Irish people in the 1640’s and the English militia’s putting down of the 1798 rising are stand out examples of very aggressive policy by the English against her neighbours. An Act of Union in 1801 merged the Kingdom of Ireland with the Kingdom of Great Britain to form the United Kingdom. The south of Ireland subsequently became an independent state in 1922.

Today many of our neighbours believe the English people still have a certain domineering arrogance and aloofness, not helped by the remnants of its class system. As a result they love to see the English beaten at anything. I’m English but have an Irish mother so England v Ireland match days are interesting in our family!

Now with reference to 1912 I believe it was the class system rather than any local tribal intolerance that was prevalent. Some of the testimony from first class passengers and crew when referring to ‘the steerage’ is said as if it was something stuck to the bottom of their shoes. For me Cameron’s depiction in The Titanic of the mother’s and fiancé’s attitude to Jack Dawson is very symbolic of the attitudes of the time.
 
May 27, 2007
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I would not have thought that Lowell was particularly Welsh-sounding.
No it really isn't. My guess is that means maybe my ancestors were English settlers who married into a Welsh family or they changed their name because they wanted to fit in with their English neighbors or somebody in my family tree did something naughty. We were always given to understand the Lowell's were of Welsh decent though.

On relations between Wales and England. It's probably no worse than that of Missouri and Iowa.
When I first moved to Missouri, the residents called me Iowegian.
 
Dec 29, 2006
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Hello again George

Some family names have multiple origins, while others have changed their spellings. It is possible that Lowell is another version of "Lovell" which, in turn, is supposed to be an Anglicised form of "Lupellus" (wolf-like). The Lovells were of course a noble family during the Middle Ages and are mentioned in Shakespeare's Richard III.

I would agree totally with your comparison between England and Wales and Missouri and Iowa - that is the also the kind of relationship that exists between neighbouring British counties (like Devon and Cornwall).
 
May 27, 2007
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Neat info. I wonder if they had any estates in the Welsh Marches. Wolf-like. Sounds like us. Well we're not noble now. I remember reading of Sir Francis Lovell, Richard III sidekick. Thanks for the info Stanley, on the Lowells. I Always wanted to see Cornwall since I read of it in Daphne Du Maurier's Vanishing Cornwall. Great book! Had a chance to buy it when our library was having a book sell and I let it slip through my fingers.
Ah well back to topic.
 
Jan 28, 2003
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"Strangely some English people can get a bit prickly about their country’s past behaviour either due to a sense of shame or because they simply don’t accept the inferences in the question."

Shame? Shame?

I might feel some shame for some British actions carried out in my name in my adult lifetime against which I didn't protest at the time, as might anyone from many other nations. But I don't feel shame for anything committed in my childhood or long before I was born. Regret retrospectively, maybe, but not shame.

And I don't think we can really analyse relationships via the rubgy field. Or, come to that, from Cameron's film.
 
May 27, 2007
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Shame? Shame?
I hear you on that Monica and also on regrets about what your Country has done in the past and present. America has done some stuff I regret. Segregation, Forcing Indians on to reservations. But I still love America and if anybody said mean stuff about it I'd get pretty peeved. So I hope I made clear in an earlier post that I meant no disrespect. I have British ancestry myself so I really can't complain can I. People and nations make mistakes.
 
Jan 28, 2003
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Not you, George ... Steve! Who seems to be a Brit and probably English. I just get cross about people apologizing for things which, well, they can't possibly apologize for.
 

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