Expected moral standards from ships' officers


Arun Vajpey

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So, how I see it, officers and captain were edwardian gentlemen and I couldn't really see them acting like how men act today
Well, not all men of today. There are happily married and faithful men even these days although some may consider it old fashioned. We celebrated our 42nd anniversary last month.
 
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Kas01

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An example, although he was a prominent millionaire passenger and not a ship's officer, was J J Astor. I read that his marriage to a woman younger than his oldest son raised quite a few eyebrows and frowns in his circles and a few past acquaintances then stopped socializing with him on that account.
That, and the fact that he already had a reputation as a womanizer, cemented by the reason for his divorce from his first wife. Not to mention that he was marrying downwards, as the Force family was well-off enough to summer in Bar Harbor but not quite well-off enough to be regarded as anything other than the extreme high end of middle class.

According to Andrew Wilson's Shadows of the Titanic and contemporary news reports, Madeleine's father was on board with the idea and her mother was the one who set the couple up. Couple that with Colonel Astor's reputation as "Jack Ass-tor" and there's your reason that COL Astor wasn't on most Manhattan Christmas card lists.
 
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Aly Jones

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That, and the fact that he already had a reputation as a womanizer, cemented by the reason for his divorce from his first wife. Not to mention that he was marrying downwards, as the Force family was well-off enough to summer in Bar Harbor but not quite well-off enough to be regarded as anything other than the extreme high end of middle class.

According to Andrew Wilson's Shadows of the Titanic and contemporary news reports, Madeleine's father was on board with the idea and her mother was the one who set the couple up. Couple that with Colonel Astor's reputation as "Jack Ass-tor" and there's your reason that COL Astor wasn't on most Manhattan Christmas card lists.
It's funny, because in our era, he did nothing wrong. In their era, he is seen as a monster. Compared to today, devorcing ur wife to marry another woman is nothing compared to how people treat marriage and their spouses today. I do wonder, what will they think of us because how they thought of astor after a divorce.
 

Kas01

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It's funny, because in our era, he did nothing wrong. In their era, he is seen as a monster. Compared to today, devorcing ur wife to marry another woman is nothing compared to how people treat marriage and their spouses today. I do wonder, what will they think of us because how they thought of astor after a divorce.
Well, he did end up shacking up with a girl a little more than a third of his age and less than half his ex-wife's age. In 1912 that would raise some eyebrows; in 2020 it would flood their Instagram and Snapchat accounts with people calling the Colonel a pedophile and Madeleine a gold-digger. Probably not truthfully, either, considering that in 1997 we were supposed to be more offended by Cal Hockley being a walking piece of sh!t and not by the fact that he was a 30-something-year-old engaged to and apparently already sleeping with a 17-year-old girl.

In fairness to the two, they did seem to genuinely love one another, but the Colonel definitely wasn't Madeleine's first choice.
 
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Arun Vajpey

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Even the great Horatio Nelson cheated on his wife Fanny with Emma Hamilton, who was herself married. 'Lady' Hamilton appears to have had quite a colourful life before and during her marriage to Sir William Hamilton.
 

Bo Bowman

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Stephen Christian said:

"I've always said that my parents raised me to be a good and decent person. That all flew out the window on my first liberty call in Olongapo."

Ah, Olongapo. Subic Bay. Paradise Island. Continental Club. Ahem...never been there, myself. :mad: ;)
 

Arun Vajpey

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Seriously, would a sailor not enjoying "pleasures of the flesh" during port calls and remaining faithful to his girlfriend or wife be considered as 'odd' by his colleagues in those days? I always thought the usual scenario of sailors visiting the local brothels en masse depicted in films was rather stereotyped.
 
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I don't remember that even being an issue. Don't think anybody cared one way or the other. My shop was about 40 guys maybe 2 or 3 were married. The rest of us were 18, 19, 20 year olds. The only issue I remember was how long the money would last.
 
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Stephen Christian said:

"I've always said that my parents raised me to be a good and decent person. That all flew out the window on my first liberty call in Olongapo."

Ah, Olongapo. Subic Bay. Paradise Island. Continental Club. Ahem...never been there, myself. :mad: ;)
Keeping with the family friendly nature of this site Olongapo would best be described as disney land for adults only. Only the rides were a lot cheaper.
 

Aly Jones

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Seriously, would a sailor not enjoying "pleasures of the flesh" during port calls and remaining faithful to his girlfriend or wife be considered as 'odd' by his colleagues in those days? I always thought the usual scenario of sailors visiting the local brothels en masse depicted in films was rather stereotyped.
I've always thought about that with the single officers. I can't imagine wilde, Murdoch , lightoller cheating on their wives. What did those single officers get up too in 1912? Surely something exciting but still acting and remaining a gentleman.
 

Aly Jones

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Well, he did end up shacking up with a girl a little more than a third of his age and less than half his ex-wife's age. In 1912 that would raise some eyebrows; in 2020 it would flood their Instagram and Snapchat accounts with people calling the Colonel a pedophile and Madeleine a gold-digger. Probably not truthfully, either, considering that in 1997 we were supposed to be more offended by Cal Hockley being a walking piece of sh!t and not by the fact that he was a 30-something-year-old engaged to and apparently already sleeping with a 17-year-old girl.

In fairness to the two, they did seem to genuinely love one another, but the Colonel definitely wasn't Madeleine's first choice.
I'm actually shocked to see how many men back then had younger younger wives and mistress. thought it were a modern thing but it's not.

Yes I believe the astors were in real love. I also believe women and men were more real back then, then today's men and women. Most men and Women seem false today, and act like they like a guy /girl but they put on a false act to get something value from them, where as people back then were actually in love, and you can see this in their photographs .
 

Arun Vajpey

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I can't imagine Wilde, Murdoch , lightoller cheating on their wives. What did those single officers get up too in 1912? Surely something exciting but still acting and remaining a gentleman.
Same here, especially Murdoch.
As a proper "Gentleman" sailor, Murdoch might have visited a casino or two during shore leave. Being Scottish, he might have enjoyed his whisky in moderation while off duty. Perhaps taken part in traditional Hogmanay (Scottish New Year celebrations). I cannot picture him doing anything 'naughty'.
 

Aly Jones

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Same here, especially Murdoch.
As a proper "Gentleman" sailor, Murdoch might have visited a casino or two during shore leave. Being Scottish, he might have enjoyed his whisky in moderation while off duty. Perhaps taken part in traditional Hogmanay (Scottish New Year celebrations). I cannot picture him doing anything 'naughty'.
Like wise. You can tell by his pics and by his letters to his family and wife that he was indeed a gentleman. Everything we read about him always gives you an impression of a Scottish gentlemen.
He was a very friendly chap. In the Murdoch book, by Susan stormer, Murdoch invited his lower ranked friends for a drink at the pub. What a wonderful guy.

Officer Murdoch was one of the most popular officers on the Transatlantic runs in 1912, and I know heaps of socialites of his time fancy the officers. I do wonder how murdoch the other married officers rebuff their offers?
 

Arun Vajpey

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I do wonder how murdoch the other married officers rebuff their offers?
I am not sure if well bred ladies of the day made suggestive remarks to ship's officers unless the lady in question was slightly under the influence of alcohol. But I am sure someone who was a true 'officer and gentleman' who regularly mixed with such crowds (I am not sure if Murdoch did, though) would be skilled in the art of politely but firmly declining such offers without making an issue about it.
 
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Nov 14, 2005
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I'm actually shocked to see how many men back then had younger younger wives and mistress. thought it were a modern thing but it's not.

Yes I believe the astors were in real love. I also believe women and men were more real back then, then today's men and women. Most men and Women seem false today, and act like they like a guy /girl but they put on a false act to get something value from them, where as people back then were actually in love, and you can see this in their photographs .
Been that way through out history. Programmed in the DNA. In the time of Titanic there was no difference. But a lot of that depends on what your actually talking about...sex or something else.
 
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