Father Browne's Ticket

Jul 2, 2010
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Hi!

I was looking at the list of Cross Chanel passengers, and noticed that Fther Brownes Ticket number is the same as the 5 people of the O'Dell family....purchased by Mr H. O'Dell (not traveling) for 6 adults. tkt.84 for 24pounds. (Sorry don't know how to make the symbol for it LOL)
Anyway, on Fther Brownes ET biography it says that his ticket was purchased by his Uncle Robert...tkt84 for 4pounds. Which info is correct? Did he travel with/know the O'Dell family? I am a little confused.....

Laurie
 
H

Hermann Söldner

Guest
Hi

The number of his ticket is nowhere recorded.
It is said, that he travelled with the Odell
family. That is wrong. The Odell family was
refunded for one person, because Mr. Odell
didn't travel with his family. The ticket
number for Father Browne is subsequently "?" and
not 84.

Hermann Söldner
 
A

Arthur Merchant (Arthur)

Guest
Are you sure Fr. Browne had no connection to the Odell family? In the Lynch/Marschall book Titanic An Illustrated History, they have numerous Fr. Browne photos including several of the Odell family when they were crossing to Queenstown which apparantly were in the possession of the Odell family. Lynch also says that Fr. Browne was traveling as a guest of Lily Odell.
 
H

Hermann Söldner

Guest
He may have had a connection to the Odell family,
but what nature I don't know. With regard to
the tickets there is no connection, provided
the persons of the Odell-party are given correct.

If looking at the letter which was written to
Father Browne, there is no "invitation" deducable.

Odells were listed as 6 persons, and for one
persons they were refunded the money. Thus
only 5 persons travelled (Lily, Jack, Kate and
the two Mays.
 
D

Daniel Rosenshine (Danielr)

Guest
Are you sure that the Odells were refunded, how do you know this, where did you obtain this information. Fr. Browne was certainly a guest of the Odells. He was Jack's private tutor. There apparently was some dispute between Mrs Odell and her husband about inviting Fr. Browne to join them. Mr Odell thus refused to come and did not join them on the overnight trip to Ireland. Perhpas thus in that case Fr. Browne was included as the 6th person.

Daniel.
 
H

Hermann Söldner

Guest
Have a close look at the passenger ticket list original in New York. I suppose you have it.
I don't say he does not travel with them. This
was obviously the case. I just say he didn't
travel on their ticket. That's all.

Hermann
 

Dave Gittins

Member
Apr 11, 2001
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It's said Browne was Jack Odell's tutor, but I can't see how he could have been. All the evidence in his Titanic album is that he lived in Queenstown and returned there. Hard to tutor a London lad.

His ticket was sent to him at his home in the Bishop's Palace in Queenstown by the Queenstown office of White Star's agents on April 3rd. He boarded the ship with a friend called Brownrigg and they found his cabin, A 37. He only mentions Brownrigg, who left the ship before it sailed.

He photographed the Odell party on the tender after leaving Titanic and later corresponded with Richard May. The letters may have only started because May saw some of Browne's photos published and wanted copies. I find it significant that May did not know Browne's address or even his name. He sent the letter to "The Rev Curate Nephew of the Bishop of (illegible)" and opens "My dear Sir".

All this suggests that Browne and the Odell party were only casual shipboard acquaintances.

I'd want hard evidence on the tutor story. Maybe it comes from the vague memories of Jack Odell, who lived to a great age.
 

Jan C. Nielsen

Senior Member
Dec 12, 1999
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This is not to imply anything relative to Father Brown, but have other members been following all of these child molestation cases involving priests? This has been getting a lot of press in the United States. Has it been happening abroad, as well? Locally, in California, there have been a number of cases where priests molested children. I think the Catholic hierarchy has to do something about it. Priests should get married, I think.
 

Philip Hind

Staff member
Sep 1, 1996
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I shouldn't really wade in because this is seriously off topic but...

Would you also say that nursery teachers, youth leaders, swimming instructors and music teachers should also be married? And does the state of marriage prevent abuse toward children? I understood that most abuse takes place within the child's own home.

Surely anyone if a postion of trust like that has equal responsibility. I don't know that there is any evidence that there is more abuse amongst church workers than in other sectors but it seems to get a lot more publicity presumably because in the Cathlic church priests are supposed to be celibate.
 
K

Kathy Savadel

Guest
Thank you, Phil!!!!!

Kathy
(who has been steaming for a couple of hours)
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Bingo, Phil! Right on target!

Jan, as a Catholic, I am well aware of the controversy in general if not in the day to day details. (Some of the accused have already resigned their positions.) As to whether or not priests should be allowed to marry, all I can offer you is the fact that opinions are sharply divided on this thorny issue. I suspect that eventually, it's going to happen as the church is having a very difficult time recruiting people to the clergy. In my own parish, my priest is responsible for two different churches and their congragations. In some urban areas, the problem is even worse. Something will have to give like it or not.

On the question of sexual abuse and where it takes place most often, I have to agree with Phil.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Dec 3, 2000
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Well said, Phil.

Abuse within the Roman Catholic Church has been a hot media topic - and, in a sense, this is quite rightfully so. All such abuse should be equally abhorent. However, to single out the Catholic Church and suggest that lack of sexual release through marital relations is the cause for this, and that a solution would be to alter Church law on celibacy, is to seriously misunderstand and distort the issues here.

While working as a Ministerial adviser I had to go through a period dealing with child abuse within institutions under the Department of Social Services. Although these were secular bodies the problem was the same - adults in positions of authority abusing the trust and responsibility placed in them as caretakers of children. The marital status of the abusers had nothing to do with the unutterably vile cases I had to research - their sexual release came not through straight intercourse, but through the misuse of a power relationship.

As the responses above highlight, abuse occurs in both secular and religious institutions - from Churches (including those that allow their leaders to marry - this is by no means a 'Catholic' problem) to Scouting organisations. Having listened for hours upon hours to cases that will always haunt me - including an 80 year old woman who still vividly remembered being abused in a state orphanage in her youth - I have to state that neither the problem nor the solution is so simple.

~ Inger
 

Kyrila Scully

Member
Apr 15, 2001
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I hesitated to get involved with this conversation, but we, in West Palm Beach, are reeling under Friday's press conference by the local Bishop, who retired as news of his fondling a seminary student in the 1970's was published in the newspaper. During the press conference, he admitted that one more person may come forward as a victim of this bishop. It is doubly shocking because he is the new bishop, replacing the old bishop last year under the exact same circumstances!

Yes, it's publicized more because these men are priests and bishops, and as such, held to a higher standard. We also had a local minister and a rabbi in Boca Raton arrested for sexual abuse or soliciting sex from a minor. Both were married. So marriage isn't the solution.

I had two uncles in Catholic ministry. Uncle Bob was a priest, but retired and married (a nun!) and pursued work with the elderly. Uncle Ed was gay, and sought to offer himself in service to God, as it was illegal to be gay when he was a young man. He became a "brother," the modern term for "monk." Many other gay men served with him for the same reasons. Not only was it illegal, but their generation was raised to think their sexual preferences were evil and wrong, and they were ashamed.

I can honestly say that my uncle truly was a godly man, and I loved and respected him very much. His self-sacrifice and kindness exemplified the Christ he served. His ministry took him all the way to the Vatican, where he was privileged to serve the Pope. But during his years of service, he was given to periods of retreat and self-flagellation to purify himself of his sinfulness and shame, as was the custom of Catholic servants of his generation.

The local bishop confessed that he has also spent the last 30 years trying to atone for what he did to those students. Who knows how many non-heterosexual men and women have sought to overcome what they perceive and have been taught is evil by entering the ministry in whatever capacity or denomination, in order to purify themselves of their sexual preferences? I have compassion for these individuals.

Perhaps the problem as to why there are so many scandals is this: I suspect that pedophiles and other sexual "deviants" have chosen the path of ministry for the same reasons; because their preferences are still illegal, immoral, and unthinkable. Perhaps many of them try to overcome, but we always find out eventually about the ones who failed to overcome. Perhaps many of them chose ministry deliberately because of the availability of victims and the trust factor assumed because of their ministerial position. Whatever, the number seems to be growing year after year. I think these people do need to face responsibility and accept punishment for it, as my own childhood abusers were punished. (Not surprisingly, I found it easier to forgive the one who physically abused me than the one who sexually abused me.)

All the best,
Kyrila
 
T

Timothy Brandsoy

Guest
Kyrila (and others) to bring this back to "on topic" status, I have a question.

Was there "gay" life in 1912 and on the Titanic? If I read a previous string correctly, there was a "close friendship" between Moody and Phillips. Any more info would be appreciated. It would have been difficult to be gay then. The only period piece I've seen is the terrfic movie "Morice".

Thanks
Tim Brandsoy
 
T

Timothy Brandsoy

Guest
The movis is "Maurice" duh, but it's pronounced Morris.

Tim B
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Easley South Carolina
I don't know about on the Titanic, but there surely was gay life then and throughout all of history. The thing is that in that day and age, it was simply not the sort of thing one discussed in polite society, at least not out in the open, and at that always with scorn and disappproval.

It was a very different age!

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
Jun 18, 2007
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Uh, about that "close friendship" between Moody and Phillips... I'm pretty sure it did not run in "that" direction!
happy.gif
 
J

Jemma Hyder

Guest
lol Hmmm Jack Phillips, the notorious womanising cad with a heart of gold (blah blah blah lol) homosexual? any views on this one Inger lol.....
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Dec 3, 2000
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happy.gif
It's a new one on me...!

I am aware of some individuals with homosexual preferences on board the Titanic, and no doubt there were many of which others are aware. You're quite correct, Timothy, that this is hardly a trend emerging in the late 20th Century/Early 21st Century - same sex couples run through history. You're also right that this was a paricularly problematic era in which to be gay...the Wilde trial was still vivid in the public's memory.

As far as I know, however, both Moody and Philips had romantic heterosexual inclinations - at the time of the disaster, one was engaged and there was speculation by his family that the other was heading down the same path. Then as now, a close friendship between two people of the same gender does not have to be sexual or romantic.

Our knowledge of the Philips/Moody friendship rests solely, thus far, on one line in one letter in which one refers to the other as 'a great pal' - Moody was a very social, charming and personable young man who had many friends of both genders.

~ Inger
 
J

Jemma Hyder

Guest
Did you know in some ancient cultures women were that inferior that men deemed it necessary to have homosexual relationships?

Likewise Phillip's and Moody getting it on is a new one with me. Hopefully more details will reveal themselves as we soldier on as to the exact nature of their friendship but I'll go out on a limb and say I doubt it very much

happy.gif


Jemma