Father Browne's Ticket

[Michael H. Standart]

I don't know about on the Titanic, but there surely was gay life then and throughout all of history. The thing is that in that day and age, it was simply not the sort of thing one discussed in polite society, at least not out in the open, and at that always with scorn and disappproval.

It was a very different age!

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Kritina Johnston]

Uh, about that "close friendship" between Moody and Phillips... I'm pretty sure it did not run in "that" direction!

 

[Jemma Hyder]

lol Hmmm Jack Phillips, the notorious womanising cad with a heart of gold (blah blah blah lol) homosexual? any views on this one Inger lol.....

 

[Inger Sheil]

It's a new one on me...!

I am aware of some individuals with homosexual preferences on board the Titanic, and no doubt there were many of which others are aware. You're quite correct, Timothy, that this is hardly a trend emerging in the late 20th Century/Early 21st Century - same sex couples run through history. You're also right that this was a paricularly problematic era in which to be gay...the Wilde trial was still vivid in the public's memory.

As far as I know, however, both Moody and Philips had romantic heterosexual inclinations - at the time of the disaster, one was engaged and there was speculation by his family that the other was heading down the same path. Then as now, a close friendship between two people of the same gender does not have to be sexual or romantic.

Our knowledge of the Philips/Moody friendship rests solely, thus far, on one line in one letter in which one refers to the other as 'a great pal' - Moody was a very social, charming and personable young man who had many friends of both genders.

~ Inger

 

[Jemma Hyder]

Did you know in some ancient cultures women were that inferior that men deemed it necessary to have homosexual relationships?

Likewise Phillip's and Moody getting it on is a new one with me. Hopefully more details will reveal themselves as we soldier on as to the exact nature of their friendship but I'll go out on a limb and say I doubt it very much

Jemma

 

[Jan C. Nielsen]

In Boston, I read that 1 out of 10 priests was involved in molesting children. To me, that's incredible. But worse than that, the Church's hierarchy appears to have been trying to simply cover it up, paying off people, and apparently, hoping it will go away. That's never the solution. I'm not trying to single out a particular religious faith here, but I think that any institution, religious or otherwise, but particularly an institution which propagates morality and views about lifestyles (including denying its clergy men and women the right to marry), should viscerally address such an issue within its ranks. We live in an age where one incredible thing after another happens, and people just become more and more thick-skinned to all of it. As a consequence, people are unable to react any more, and the news gets worse and worse. Here, an institution which I grew up believing was an icon of morality, has allowed the worst kind of immorality (criminal sexual conduct, no less) to fester in its ranks, and even now, tries to cover it up. How can they look us in the eye and preach "goodness" and "love thy neighbor"? There is something very sick, and very wrong here. The fact that the Church has not effectively addressed it shows, I think, that the problem is deeply ingrained. Perhaps they don't know how to fix it. As such, it's up to us to fix it. I believe that people should hold these institutions accountable, whether by not attending services, changing their faiths, writing to the Vatican, not giving them money, or otherwise. In this regard, I quote from Revelation:

Give back to her as she has given,
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup;
Give her as much torture and grief as the glory she gave herself . . .

 

[Timothy Brandsoy]

Inger, please shed a little (very late) gossip. Who on Titanic had 'homosexual preferences"? It seems such an archaic term today LOL.

The posts I read were:
"Regarding Moody and Phillips - yes, I do have some material (in the form of a letter one of them wrote which mentions the other). I’m holding on to it at the moment, but It’s a delightfully warm comment on their relationship.

~ Inger"

and:
"I'll take it that you are familiar with a certain person who claims to be the reincarnation of Lucy Bride. Well, two years ago on a mailing list she ran with the "reincarnation" of Thomas Andrews, she mentioned that Phillips and Moody were actually quite chummy. Okay...I've never heard of this. Is there anything that you know of to back up this claim, or is this just another flight of fancy?" Kritina Johnston

If I took them out of context, it was out of trying to "read between the lines" and as noted it was not accepted in society then. There probably wouldn't be a blatant reference. As for either of them being a womanizer, it would provide a great cover, look at Rock Hudson in the 50s!

Being Gay myself, and a Titanic buff (but not an historian like most of you here, so forgive my naivete) it would be fascinating to find a Titanic/Gay connection.

As for Gay Priests in the past, it was considered quite acceptable for them to go into the clergy. They were, after all, supposed to be celebate. But, as Jan noted, molestation is criminal misconduct against children. Pedophilia (Gay or Straight) is a terrible burden on the child. Thankfully, no one here has lumped the two together, a common misconception among the extreme Right and The Church. By combining all "deviate" behavior the Church has unwittingly encouraged pedophilia. There used to be a Gay Catholic group called Dignity. The Church has abandoned them, yet tries to protect and hide their own immoral misconduct. The Church is full of hypocrisy. It buries it's head whenever sexuality is an issue. Their comdemnation of condoms (among other issues) is an absurdity in light of their other problems.

Tim Brandsoy

 

[Kritina Johnston]

>...she ran with the "reincarnation" of Thomas Andrews, she mentioned that Phillips and Moody were actually quite chummy. Okay...I've never heard of this. Is there anything that you know of to back up this claim, or is this just another flight of fancy?" Kritina Johnston

Speaking for myself, I meant nothing untoward by my comment (God, that post was ages ago! You have been digging around in the archives! Way to go, Indiana Tim!

). In order to understand the context of my comment, you would have to know something about the list I was referring to. This girl who claims to be the reincarnation of Harold Bride's wife claimed that Phillips and Moody were amazingly great friends. Now, it looks like from that one reference in Moody's letter that he and Phillips were indeed friends, but the extent or nature of that friendship remains unknown. But, I doubt that their relationship extended into the sexual realm.

But, there was something about a passenger who had brought along a young boy with him as a travelling companion. Apparently, both perished in the sinking, and the boy's family was paid a handsome settlement by the older man's estate. The only reference I have seen regarding this matter is from one of the Commutators, and at the moment, the name of the passenger escapes me. If I can find the reference, or if someone else here knows the incident I'm referring to, help me out!

Edit: Actually, as I was typing this up, the name of the young man in question literally popped into my head! I found a reference to both the young man, Alfred Gaskell, and the man he was in the company of, Joseph Fynney.

https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/bio/p/2nd/fynney_jj.shtml

This link to Fynney's bio here on ET makes no mention of the payoff to Gaskell's family (if it ever happened). Again, if I can find that reference from the Commutator, I'll type it up and post it here!

 

[Inger Sheil]

Jan, I agree that paedophilia (and the more general 'child abuse', albeit not sexual) is absolutely abhorent, and must be addressed in whatever institutions harbour it. I think what was being disputed was the implication that the Roman Catholic Church is, by the very nature of its doctrine, predisposed towards *creating* paedophiles - i.e. that celibacy turns men who would otherwise not be molestors into predatory creatures by taking away their avenues for 'straight' sex. Horrifically, in recent years we have found child sexual abuse to be all too common in many insitutions - both secular and spiritual. As I said above, the scouting movement is particularly susceptible to this, as are community youth groups. My own experience was with wards abused while under the care of the Department of Social Services - the issue came to the fore in a report that shocked the State when it was released, its deeply disturbing findings indicating how all-too frequently those supposedly under the 'care' of the State became victims.

Fortunately, the community is increasingly unwilling to tolerate this - the Australian public is currently up in arms because it has recently been revealed that our current Governor General protected sexual abusers many years ago, when he was a bishop. Devout Catholics, like my mother, are crusading within the Church in order to make it clear to any in the hierarchy who would protect these men that congregations will not tolerate this.

Tim, I wish I could reveal more about the gay/Titanic connections - not out of prurient curiousity (as has occasionally been suggested in the past), but because their sexuality must have had an impact on their lives and characters - particularly given prevailing social norms at the time. However, this is unfortunately not my research to share - the information was given to me by other's working in the field, and it's up to them to post or publish.

Poor Philips! His reputation as a womaniser is enitrely overblown...

~ Inger

 

[Jemma Hyder]

Timothy,

If she was really a reincarnation of Lucy you'd expect her to know just a little bit about her wedding lol. Think this board has had enough of the subject lol.......

As for Jack being a womaniser that is sadly more fiction than fact, Inger will be able to set you straight with Moody's love life better than anyone

You're right too the Titanic/Gay connection is an interesting one. Kritina you have to find out these details on the man travelling with the boy it sounds fascinating......

Jemma

 

[Jemma Hyder]

Inger,

You're right poor Jack!
Can't think of many guys who would reject the label of super stud though lol can you?

 

[Kritina Johnston]

I dug through my pile of files, and I found the reference I was looking for. It comes from an article entitled "Secrets of the Titanic Revealed: The Private Lives of the Titanic's Passengers". The text of this article is from a talk Don Lynch gave on board the QM in 1995.

The relevant text goes as follows:

"Geoff Whitfield (wonder who that could be?

), who lives in Liverpool, related this story about another 'couple' from Liverpool traveling second class involved a Liverpool rubber merchant, Joseph Fynney. The Liverpool Echo newspaper in 1912 told how Fynney always took great interest in the welfare of the young men of his local parish church. He made frequent trips to North America each year, always with a different young man. On this particular trip it was with a teenager named Alfred Gaskell. Fynney's neighbors were aware of his many gentlemen callers, and after the deaths of the two men in the disaster Gaskell's parents moved to a much nicer home. It was assumed that they had been paid off by Fynney's family."

Well, there you have it. I only post it, I don't make conjectures. And if anything more has been found out about the matter since this article was published, hopefully Mr. Whitfield should be able to provide an update.

 

[Ben Holme]

All,

Mabel Fortune, youngest daughter of Mark and Mary was another "Titanic/Gay" connection, although her homosexuality may have developed only in later years. In 1912 she was romantically involved with Harrison Driscoll whom she later married. They seperated shortly after 1913 and Mabel lived out the rest of her life with Charlotte Armstrong, a woman she had met in Ottawa.

Regards,
Ben

 

[Kathy Savadel]

>> By combining all "deviate" behavior the Church has unwittingly encouraged pedophilia....The Church is full of hypocrisy. It buries it's head whenever sexuality is an issue. Their comdemnation of condoms (among other issues) is an absurdity in light of their other problems. <<

This is a Titanic forum, not one in which to gratuitously bash the Roman Catholic Church. I find this (above) personal rant outrageously offensive. Please stick to the topic at hand.

 

[Timothy Brandsoy]

Kathy, I find it odd that you singled my comment out specifically. Being a Catholic myself I feel compelled to speak out if I wish. Others have vented their intolerance of recent occurrences within the Church, including Phil, the moderator. Personally I find your noting MY comments outrageously offensive. Maybe your ire was in reference to condoms? Or that I mentioned I was Gay? Why is my comment a "personal rant"? What are the others? I was mostly agreeing with what has been said. Feel free to defend the Church if you wish, but don't make me your antagonist.

Although the thread is no longer about Father Brown, it is a legitimate line of thought and exchange. How society has changed in it's perception of Homosexuality, and where it thankfully hasn't, Pedophilia. (I'm not too fond of the 35 year old man taking 16 year old boys across the pond).

Tim B