Forward staterooms on Adeck

Dec 4, 2000
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Back to the open windows -- Michael's post of December 17 strikes me as most plausible: the rooms were being aired out. Based on the winter clothing being worn in the photos, it is doubtful that anyone inside these rooms would have been seeking a breath of sea air. However, Titanic was brand new...which means fresh paint. And anyone "senior" enough to remember old-fashioned oil based paint will recall the strong odor that lingered long after the surface "dried" to the touch.

-- David G. Brown
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hello David,

Though the Titanic was fresh paint, and it you think it is doubtful that anyone inside these rooms would have been seeking a breath of sea air, I still don't believe that the rooms were unoccupied. Like I already told some points above, there's another picture of first class cabins with open windows. And it is sure that these cabins (the suites on the portside of B and C deck) were occupied. I don't think that the most wealthy persons in the world opened their windows to become sick. Could it perhaps be, because of that disgusting smell of fresh paint??! Not only the empty cabins smelled so terrible. So it seems me more likely that the occupied cabins were aired and not the unoccupied cabins.

Greetings Rollie
 
Dec 2, 2000
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David and Rollie both, I have some vivid memories of fresh paint on board ships and unfortunately, some of the replacement formulas are not much of an improvement. Some of those epoxy resin primer coatings will quite literally take your breath away! I don't even care to THINK about what they might have been sniffing back in 1912.

I'm not so sure that an opportunity would have been missed to air out an unoccupied cabin if the weather permitted. I'm pretty confident that people in an occupied cabin would have exploited the opportunity if the fumes became too much.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi Michael,

I do agree that you must have lived under terrible circumstances when you where onboard some fresh paint ships (hahaha)(wonder if Titanic passengers had the same thought!. I envie you because of youre experience with ships, I never travelled by big ships, only once on a unreliable vessel.
What I still don't understand is why you all just accept that those rooms were empty. I mean to say that the occupied cabins smelled like paint too! So an opened window is no evidence for an unoccupied cabin. And we do not know all the cabinnumbers of passengers on the Titanic.

Please send me some reactions!
Greetings Rollie
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Dec 2, 2000
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My reaction is one of ambiguity and uncertainty in regards to those cabins being occupied. There doesn't seem to be any record lying about which we can check to affirm or refute the theory. Of course, if somebody knows otherwise, I'd love to hear from them.

Most of my encounters with fresh paint happened on ships which were in refit at the time. Sandblast grit, primers, and main coatings, fumes and all. The formula 150 and 151 primers are the absolute worst in my book. (although I'm sure that either Erik, Sparks, or David Brown could beat that.)

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi Michael,

When there is nobody who could give evidence for or against my theory, I guess this will be an unanswered question(Seems a new mystery). I wished I could stap back into 1912 and check it all out...

Greetings Rollie
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Hello,

Rolf it is hard to say weather cabins A1 to A4 were occupied or empty. There are almost 60 (or at least over 50) first class passengers who's cabins or even decks we don't know. There is plenty of room to think that any or all those cabins were occupied.

A2 was occupied, however the photo was taken in Southampton, so I don't know whether Molson had yet moved from C30 to A2 by that time, it is likely, but like I said, I don't know.

Also I have my speculations that Sloper may have been in A4, however I have too little to prove it. I know he was on A deck and not far from Ross, and don't forget that McCaffry and Beattie moved from C6 to cabins on A deck close to Ross'.

As for the Odell speculation of occupying B deck suites, it was me who proposed it. I believe the ET cabin list has an explanation.

Now I personally think it's ridiculous for even ‘one-nighters’ not to be given a cabin. Of course Browne, Odells/Mays and Nichols were given a cabin. No ship let alone Titanic would leave a passenger without a cabin just because they only stay for one night. It is only commonsense that they did occupy cabins.

Just for the sake of explanation, imagine hotels let out rooms for a period of 7 days. Also lets imagine that 99% of the customers booked the rooms in that way. The rooms would cost say $1000 for that duration of time. If you were a customer that wanted a room for one night, why would you be denied a room just because you only want it for one night and were not prepared to pay $1000? Or imagine you wanted a hotel room for one night but were denied it simply because you were only a one night customer and were not prepared to pay 3 times the cost of the room for that!?

There was no need for Southampton - Cherbourg passengers to have a cabin. That is clear as they would only spend some 5 or so hours on the ship.

60 pounds for a cabin like A1 and A2 seems far too high, I don't know when or where Roberts/Madill/Allen booked their tickets, but it seems that Titanic's sailing was during an off season. Some booked cabins for as low as 25 punds 11 shillings.

Southampton - Queenstown cabin allocations may have had a similar history to that of "Complimentary" bookings. Andrews, Parr, Chisholm, Reuchlin were all booked "Complementarily". Thus they are not given cabins on the Cave list. There are other names on the cabin list with no cabins, but they either requested for their cabin not to be mentioned or they simply bought a ticket to sail on Titanic and have not yet been given a specific cabin.

Anyway, what I was trying to say with complementary tickets is they were free, thus cabins to persons bearing such tickets would be assigned at the last point, when all paying customers have reserved cabins to their likings. Once that was done and Parlor suite B52 had endured its numerous cancellations and no one else had reserved the suite by the evening of April 9, the suite was given to Ismay. Why not, no one else had paid for it. A36 would have been pricey, and being new it was unreserved thus the WSL was able to issue it to Andrews. I have no doubt that Chisholm, Parr and Reuchlin all received nice cabins, large. Possibly C deck or B deck suites or who knows maybe even A35, A3 or A4.

Thus since S - Q passage was a fare of 4 pounds, and various suites and large comfy cabins remained unreserved, why not give the 'one-nighters' a taste of what White Star Line cabins can be like and possibly attract them for further business in the future. To me it does not seem unusual that passengers joining the ship for one night only and paying 4 pounds can occupy such cabins as A37 and B72-74-76.

Daniel.
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Also forgot to add. From Browne's photo of Titanic's port side, showing open portholes and widows of C and B deck (respectively) you can't really be certain which rooms were occupied and which were not.

Some of the "occupied" cabins had their portholes closed. Some "unoccupied" (or believed to have been unoccupied) cabins had their portholes open. It really is hard to say.

Also the 50 - 60 first class passenger with no known cabin allocation (I estimated) would have occupied about 40 cabins.

Baumann and L. P. Smiths are not intended to be included on the Cross Channel list, however the positioning of their names is misleading. They were not Cross Channel passengers and did not board at Southampton. All three boarded at Cherbourg.

Daniel.
 
Apr 26, 2005
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May I ask where you got an information such as a cabin transfer for Molson/Beattie-McCaffry etc.

In the testimony concerned, a transfer can only be deduced, but it also could be an error... I seriously doubt that all those gentlemen moved about the same time only to be near their sick friend...that's curious.

By the way, your explications are very informative, Daniel. Thanks.
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
I often thought that Peuchen went senile and confused all he knew. However reading his testimony carefully shows that he's not mistaken. He's questioned several times on the whereabouts of his friends.

One particular question is if he had any friends on C deck (same deck as Peuchen's) and his answer was not that he knew of and that most of his friends were on A deck. Charles you might have to wait for my revised cabin list (which has not improved since the last time I spoke to you about it). I'll say though that Molson and Peuchen were very good friends and if Molson was on C deck, then why would Peuchen say that as far as he knew none of his friends were on C deck. Peuchen also claims he visited Molson's cabin, which he gives as A2.

If Molson were in C30, then Peuchen would have known it and would have thus likely known that the Allisons were at least in C26. However Peuchn gives A2 for Molson and says he isn't sure where the Allisons were. Obviously other than Molson, his good friend in A2 and Ross/McCaffry/Beattie who were nearby, he never bothered to enquire where his other friends were such as Allisons, Fortunes and Franklin, who were actually all on C deck.

Peuchen says himself that most of his friends were on A deck. I'm sure he is not mistaken and I don't doubt that McCaffry and Beattie moved to A deck.

As for SLoper being in A4, he mentions the "other bed" in his cabin and there would have been no such thing in A12 (or A6), as there would have been only one bed and a sofa. Also (although he may be wrong) Peuchen says he "thinks" Ross was in A12, which is possible. Ross was bed-bound for the entire voyage due to illness and thus moving him to A12, to at least provide him with windows and natural light would be understandable, rather than being stuck in an inside cabin all the time with only electric lights and not being able to leave his cabin.

Daniel.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi Daniel,
That's a lot of fascinating information. Question: Where did you find evidence that connects Thomas P. Franklin and the Canadians?

Also, is there any evidence to suggest who the "friend" may have been who alerted Peuchen to the ice on the forward well-deck?

Regards
Ben

P.S Didn't Baumann board at Southampton with Mr and Mrs Harris?
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Also, wasn't Franklin on D-deck, cabin #34?
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Oops, that teaches me for trying to write at 4am in the morning. I didn't mean Franklin, I meant Foreman who was in C111.

In this case Foreman isn't connected with the Canadians, Peuchen simply mentioned him as one of the people he had encountered aboard. I think he also mentioned having met the Gibson ladies.

I've never really thought who the "friend" he was referring to was, perhaps it was McCaffry or Beattie, but then again Peuchen may have mentioned them by name.

No as far as I know Baumann boarded at Cherbourg. White Star records support that.

Daniel.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi Daniel,
I have seen Peuchen's (full) tesimony on ET and it mentions Foreman and the Gibsons.
He was the only person other than Austin Partner, Fortunes and Allisons on C-deck with whom he was acquainted.
I had a vague idea you meant Foreman as Franklin was English and on D-deck

Ben
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hello there,

Excuse me for my absence for the last days. All the points I've read above are interesting.

I suppose that Mr. Daniels could also have been on A deck like Mr. Sloper. Maybe is this possible according to the rates they payed for the crossing.

I didn't know in wich topic it was, but I've suggest before that Jonkheer Reuchlin (Jonkheer is a Dutch noble title so Mr. Reuchlin was a nobleman) was on B deck. His cabin is not mentioned. He was offered a special rate, because he was the managing director of the Holland America Line. Ismay promissed (as a good business connection) personally that he would give Mr. Reuchlin a luxe stateroom. Jonkheer Reuchlin was an acquaintance of Mr. Van der Hoef who had his cabin on the forward starboard part of B deck. There is no other passenger mentioned in the gangway of Mr. Van der Hoef.
Because of this, I was thinking that Jonkheer Reuchlin had a cabin in that area or gangway too. Or didn't the White Star Line give acquaintances rooms in the same areas??

Hope you could give me some information.

Greetings Rollie
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi Rollie,
Could you please cite for the acquaintance between Reuchlin and Van Derhoef. Also, could the two of them be acquainted with Jacob Birnbaum?
I would place Reuchlin on B-deck, either in one of the aft De-Luxe suites or the forward B-deck cabins i.e 1-9.
Looking at the cost of Emil Brandeis' cabin they seem to be quite expensive. If he wasn't far from Van Derhoef in B-19, perhaps he was in B-9/7?

On the A-deck front, I would also have Dr. Brewe on A-deck looking at the price.

Hope this helps
Ben

P.S are there any existing photos of Reuchlin?
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hello Ben,

Well, I'm almost sure that both men weren't acquainted with Jacob Birnbaum. In a reliable Dutch source about all the Dutch and Belgian passengers aboard Mr Birnbaum is mentioned, but there is no evidence for contact between them. Jonkheer Reuchlin and Mr Birnbaum were no businesspartners or something like that.

Mr Thompson Hamilton, the secretair of Mr. Andrews, reported the names of the for him important and well-known first class passengers on a list. Among those were the names of Jonkheer Reuchlin and Mr van der Hoef. Mr van der Hoef was the first class passenger representative so I'm almost sure that he knew Jonkheer Reuchlin. The Dutch source says they were acquaintances. Both had interests in the shipping industry.

As for this it is sure to say that Jonkheer Reuchlin had business contacts with the H&W crew and Mr Ismay onboard Titanic (Ismay knewed Jonkheer Reuchlin very well). Holland America Line was interested in the Titanic, because they ordered the same kind of ship (Statendam II) at H&W in Belfast.

I wonder if Jonkheer Reuchlin could have occupied a cabin near one of the other acquaintances onboard like Mr Ismay or someone from H&W. That could explain that Jonkheer Reuchlin was in one of the B deck suites like you've said.

There are pictures of Jonkheer Reuchlin. I've got two of them (it is strange that there are no pictures here on ET of Jonkheer Reuchlin). Jonkheer Reuchlin and the Reuchlin family was an acquaintance of the Dutch Royal family. It's like the Duff Gordons and the English Royal family.

Hope I've give you some more information. I'm looking forward to responses.

Greetings Rollie
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi,

I forgot to ask if it is possible that Mr William Fisher Hoyt was on A deck too. The rate he payed is like the other rates from A deck passengers.

Tough according to the payed rates, I think it is difficult to say: who occupied wich cabin. For example Mr Barkworth payed the same rate as Milton Clyde Long, but both of them were on different decks.

Greetings Rollie
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William Armour Murdoch

Guest
Pleased to note the knowledge on this page about various cabins (paint fumes - a surprise) and names of occupants and where boarded. Behe names Rood as "Hugo Roscoe Rood," when his first name is "Hugh." There were questions as to whether he did not board or got off the ship, but other correspondents are quite positive he did board.

I am relating directly with the family of Hugh Roscoe Rood, shown by George Behe as occupying A-32 First Class (Ticket Number 113767 (50 Pounds cost). Behe says Rood purchased his ticket in Southampton, yet also states that (they) were in Paris when Rood booked a single passage on the Titanic.

I am (was) a personal friend to Mrs. Lena Rood's maid, formerly of Seattle and now deceased. She said they were in London at the Ritz when she told us about Hugh going to America and Lena and herself not going on the Titanic.

That's the reason those who are knowledgeable on ticket sales, cabins, etc. can be of help. I also get the impression that A-32 would have been quite "POSH," although possibly also "painty?"

Your assistance would be very welcome by me and the Rood family.

Armour