Four in a nest?


Cam Houseman

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,214
532
188
16
Maryland, USA
Absolutely nothing Cam. It is pointing at you. Although I must admit it looks a bit peculiar. As far as I can see, her port engine is running astern and the starboard one is on slow ahead. This is classic ship handling way of turning a twin screw ship round in her own length.
However, there is also another feature in that photograph. This one suggests that the following photograph is also a fake. Do you see it? Does anyone else see it?
View attachment 72700
Wait what, this is a fake? You'll have to convince me of this one, Jim.

Do I see it, hm.

Do you mean the portholes? (not to start up that stupid stuff about the switch theory) Perhaps the smoke? I could see how you'd think 'adding' smoke would hide photoshop errors.

For example, it's sort of easy to find hidden mistakes on the Photoshopped Olympic pic:

The Hull is "dirty" where it wasn't before
Olympic:
1603311304311.png


Titanic:
1603311222807.png


If not those, I don't see it.
 

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,661
1,395
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
Wait what, this is a fake? You'll have to convince me of this one, Jim.

Do I see it, hm.

Do you mean the portholes? (not to start up that stupid stuff about the switch theory) Perhaps the smoke? I could see how you'd think 'adding' smoke would hide photoshop errors.

For example, it's sort of easy to find hidden mistakes on the Photoshopped Olympic pic:

The Hull is "dirty" where it wasn't before
Olympic:
View attachment 72707

Titanic:
View attachment 72706

If not those, I don't see it.
Not on the ship and that's then only clue you are getting.;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Cam Houseman

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,214
532
188
16
Maryland, USA
You are partly there. Cam but you must use the photgraph I posted with sitting man in it.
Everyone can join in this game. We can call it "Spot the differencies and Similarities."
Perhaps I'm missing something. I found this Picture of Olympic in a thread you started.
1603389738839.png


this looks very similar to the original Photo.

Anyone else?
 

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,661
1,395
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
Perhaps I'm missing something. I found this Picture of Olympic in a thread you started.
View attachment 72731

this looks very similar to the original Photo.

Anyone else?
Hello Cam,

In fact there is a whole confusion of such pictures. I raised this before, 5 years ago. Check-out "Spot the Difference" November 16, 1915.
Incidentally, there is another little thing that I don't think I spotted 5 years ago. Have a look at the following photograph. If you magnify the stern areas between the ship and the quay, you can see a what looks to me like a ripple crest which is typically caused by a propeller turning slowly astern, In the same picture, magnify the bow where it meets the water. You will see, smooth, dead water, not trailing ripples as you would see with a ship moving slowly ahead. More so in the dead water between hull and quay side.
ripples.jpg

.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Mar 18, 2008
2,652
1,153
248
Germany
Hello there for those interested. For 5 years now a ET member claims that this photograph see post #40 is "faked" and does not show Titanic leaving berth 44 on April 10th and was wrong claimed by the photographer and documents. (Said member first claimed it is Olympic, then it is at dock at Belfast but meanwhile has accepted to be Titanic at Southampton.) According to that member it shows Titanic berthing on the early morning of April 4th against what crew members, documents etc. have.

So let us say that member is right that this picture show Titanic docking, then the photograph is really faked. Guess which tug was not hired & paid (and not involved) with taking Titanic to her berth?! ;)
 
Mar 18, 2008
2,652
1,153
248
Germany
It's the first one on the left side. This tug was not hired nor paid for Titanic as it was in use for another steamer.

White Star paid about 26 Pounds for the use of the tugs and the "Detail of service" according to the Company logs Detail of Service for Titanic was "to No. 44". There is no other entry for tugs hired, paid and used for Titanic until April 10th.
But sure I have already mentioned this one in a different thread some long time ago...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Cam Houseman

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,214
532
188
16
Maryland, USA
It's the first one on the left side. This tug was not hired nor paid for Titanic as it was in use for another steamer.

White Star paid about 26 Pounds for the use of the tugs and the "Detail of service" according to the Company logs Detail of Service for Titanic was "to No. 44". There is no other entry for tugs hired, paid and used for Titanic until April 10th.
But sure I have already mentioned this one in a different thread some long time ago...
Wow! Documents regarding this small aspect of the White Star Line are available? Where'd you read it?
Is there a place where you can read the White Star Line's business, like, their order to make Titanic and Olympic, or, things like their merger with Cunard?

Sorry for this sudden barrage of questions!
 
Mar 18, 2008
2,652
1,153
248
Germany
Wow! Documents regarding this small aspect of the White Star Line are available? Where'd you read it?
Is there a place where you can read the White Star Line's business, like, their order to make Titanic and Olympic, or, things like their merger with Cunard?

No it is not. It's from the logs of the Isle of Wight and South of England Royal Mail Steam Packet Limited Company which was running the tugs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,661
1,395
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
It's the first one on the left side. This tug was not hired nor paid for Titanic as it was in use for another steamer.

White Star paid about 26 Pounds for the use of the tugs and the "Detail of service" according to the Company logs Detail of Service for Titanic was "to No. 44". There is no other entry for tugs hired, paid and used for Titanic until April 10th.
But sure I have already mentioned this ovedne in a different thread some long time ago...
That is not proof of anything. Harbour tugs worked and still work on the basis of "First come-first served". The reason being that ships can be, and very often are, delayed. Consequently, the only thing The Red Funnel Tug Company could be sure of was that berth 44 was for Titanic.
What could not be predicted was the exact time of arrival. I presume four tugs were allocated to berth her, Do you know their names.
Incidentally. If you look carefully at the following photograph you will see that the bow tug is made fast and has the weight but is not pulling. Do you how I know that? And do you know why that is?
1603310916647.png
 

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,661
1,395
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
5 years later and still the same made up stuff. Have fun with your world of fantasy.

You are correct. After five years, you still will not answer my simple questions or prove that I am wrong.
From this latest response, may I take it you do not know the names of the tugs used to berth Titanic? Nor do you know why there is an absence of Bow Tug towing wake in the alleged photograph of Titanic leaving Southampton?
The solution is in your hands, Ioannis. you are the one who is defending the status quo. Simply answer my questions. If you do not have an answer, then have the courage to admit it.

I make one last attempt for you to end it all. Simply answer the following question which I have put to you several times
Q. How was it possible for Titanic to steam from Belfast to her berth in Southampton in exactly 28 hours at an average speed of 18 knots if she covered the last three hours at a reduced speed?
If you cannot see the reasoning behind the question, then you do not want to see it and nothing has changed in 5 years.
I will not hold my breath for a constructive answer.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user

Cam Houseman

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,214
532
188
16
Maryland, USA
You are correct. After five years, you still will not answer my simple questions or prove that I am wrong.
From this latest response, may I take it you do not know the names of the tugs used to berth Titanic? Nor do you know why there is an absence of Bow Tug towing wake in the alleged photograph of Titanic leaving Southampton?
The solution is in your hands, Ioannis. you are the one who is defending the status quo. Simply answer my questions. If you do not have an answer, then have the courage to admit it.

I make one last attempt for you to end it all. Simply answer the following question which I have put to you several times
Q. How was it possible for Titanic to steam from Belfast to her berth in Southampton in exactly 28 hours at an average speed of 18 knots if she covered the last three hours at a reduced speed?
If you cannot see the reasoning behind the question, then you do not want to see it and nothing has changed in 5 years.
I will not hold my breath for a constructive answer.
What’s the distance, Jim? I thought on April 14th Titanic steamed a couple hundred miles?
 

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,661
1,395
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
What’s the distance, Jim? I thought on April 14th Titanic steamed a couple hundred miles?
Not April 14th, Cam, April 2,3 & 4, That was the trip round from Belfast. Titanic left Belfast at 8pm on the evening of April 3. She steamed a total of 492 /7 miles (depending on her exact track) until she arrived at the Pilot Station at Nab Tower where she stopped to pick up a Pilot for the trip through the East Solent channel between the Isle of Wight and the mainland. This is a long, narrow winding channel between sand bank. After that the channel got narrower as she entered the channel leading up to Southampton water and the river Tess, finally to the WSL dock. Pilot top dock up channel is 28 miles.
Belfast5.jpg

2nd Officer Lightoller told the US Inquiry that they averaged about 18 for the trip round from Belfast. He was talking about the 497 leg. They still had 28 miles to go after they embarked the pilot. There is no way they would have made 18 knots up the above channel after dark. According to Lightoller they "arrived" near to midnight. That being so, they arrived at the Pilot station, not the berth at that time. According to the records Titanic "entered inward" at 1-15am April 4.
Think about this: A ship averaging 18 knots over 28 hours (8 pm to Midnight the next day) will only have covered a distance of 504 nautical miles. The total distance Belfast to berth was 497 + 28 = 525 nautical miles. Even if Titanic did not stop to pick up the pilot and ran up channel right to the berth at full speed, she still could not have been off her berth before 1-10 pm. Even then it would have taken at least an hour to make fast tugs, turn her, back into the berth and make fast. Do you see what I am getting at?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Cam Houseman

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,214
532
188
16
Maryland, USA
Not April 14th, Cam, April 2,3 & 4, That was the trip round from Belfast. Titanic left Belfast at 8pm on the evening of April 3. She steamed a total of 492 /7 miles (depending on her exact track) until she arrived at the Pilot Station at Nab Tower where she stopped to pick up a Pilot for the trip through the East Solent channel between the Isle of Wight and the mainland. This is a long, narrow winding channel between sand bank. After that the channel got narrower as she entered the channel leading up to Southampton water and the river Tess, finally to the WSL dock. Pilot top dock up channel is 28 miles.
View attachment 72820
2nd Officer Lightoller told the US Inquiry that they averaged about 18 for the trip round from Belfast. He was talking about the 497 leg. They still had 28 miles to go after they embarked the pilot. There is no way they would have made 18 knots up the above channel after dark. According to Lightoller they "arrived" near to midnight. That being so, they arrived at the Pilot station, not the berth at that time. According to the records Titanic "entered inward" at 1-15am April 4.
Think about this: A ship averaging 18 knots over 28 hours (8 pm to Midnight the next day) will only have covered a distance of 504 nautical miles. The total distance Belfast to berth was 497 + 28 = 525 nautical miles. Even if Titanic did not stop to pick up the pilot and ran up channel right to the berth at full speed, she still could not have been off her berth before 1-10 pm. Even then it would have taken at least an hour to make fast tugs, turn her, back into the berth and make fast. Do you see what I am getting at?
Yes I do see. I was meaning however didn’t Titanic make hundreds of miles on her last day, so it’s possible that she got there so quickly.
Now i see that probably isn’t possible.
thanks Jim, especially for the complicated math.
 

B-rad

Member
Jul 1, 2015
609
214
108
39
Tacoma, WA
Can someone tell me, in true question, why it is believed Titanic went around the Isle of Wight and up the East Solent as opposed to passing through the Needles, up the West Solent, picking up a pilot from between there and Warden Ledge, or (if the weather determined) from Anvil Point? MY 1911 'Sailing Directions' by the British Government gives clear directions for night pilotage and refers to the West Solent as the 'Main Channel'. Is there documents or something indicating that Titanic went up the East Solent?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
6,661
1,395
323
NewtonMearns, Glasgow, Scotland.
Can someone tell me, in true question, why it is believed Titanic went around the Isle of Wight and up the East Solent as opposed to passing through the Needles, up the West Solent, picking up a pilot from between there and Warden Ledge, or (if the weather determined) from Anvil Point? MY 1911 'Sailing Directions' by the British Government gives clear directions for night pilotage and refers to the West Solent as the 'Main Channel'. Is there documents or something indicating that Titanic went up the East Solent?
There was not enough water in the West Solent for vessels like the Olympic class with their 30 odd feet draft and beam. Note that RMS Olympic used the West Solent channel. The Spithead area was most frequented by warships. The West Solent was also the main channel for vessels coming from the south or north out of The Channel. There is actually a photograph taken by (I think) father Browne showing one of the west Solent Forts. I suspect it is the Sea Horse Sand Fort It might even be The Nab.
nab Fort.jpg

1603649398474.png
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Similar threads

Similar threads