Four in a nest?


Mar 22, 2003
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complicated math
Not all that complicated Cam. If she really departed Belfast at exactly 8pm and arrived at the Nab at exactly midnight the next day, that's a run of 28 hours 0 minutes. Then, using a distance of 492 nautical miles (Reeds table), to get the average speed one simply divides the mileage by the time, 492/28 = 17.6 knots, which is almost 18. See, not very complicated. The problem is how could they be secured at the dock 1.5 hours later if they had about 28 more miles to get to the dock through a twisting and turning channel? One should be questioning the data that was given.
 
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B-rad

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I've never really looked into this aspect of Titanic's story before so it is pretty interesting. I found these newspaper clips. I know that some of the information has been discussed here, http://www.paullee.com/titanic/tnav.php

Just thought I would share.

news.png
 
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Mar 18, 2008
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I've never really looked into this aspect of Titanic's story before so it is pretty interesting. I found these newspaper clips.

The funny is all newspaper accounts I have seen so far have the same times mentioned for leaving Belfast and berthing at Southampton. Crew members had time mentioned for docking which are more in line with the Harbour logs.
 
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B-rad

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Franklin said that White Star received a telegram of Titanic' s arrival. I wonder if there is any record of this telegram somewhere out there?
 
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Cam Houseman

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Not all that complicated Cam. If she really departed Belfast at exactly 8pm and arrived at the Nab at exactly midnight the next day, that's a run of 28 hours 0 minutes. Then, using a distance of 492 nautical miles (Reeds table), to get the average speed one simply divides the mileage by the time, 492/28 = 17.6 knots, which is almost 18. See, not very complicated. The problem is how could they be secured at the dock 1.5 hours later if they had about 28 more miles to get to the dock through a twisting and turning channel? One should be questioning the data that was given.
thanks Sam
 

Jim Currie

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Not all that complicated Cam. If she really departed Belfast at exactly 8pm and arrived at the Nab at exactly midnight the next day, that's a run of 28 hours 0 minutes. Then, using a distance of 492 nautical miles (Reeds table), to get the average speed one simply divides the mileage by the time, 492/28 = 17.6 knots, which is almost 18. See, not very complicated. The problem is how could they be secured at the dock 1.5 hours later if they had about 28 more miles to get to the dock through a twisting and turning channel? One should be questioning the data that was given.

Not all that complicated Cam. If she really departed Belfast at exactly 8pm and arrived at the Nab at exactly midnight the next day, that's a run of 28 hours 0 minutes. Then, using a distance of 492 nautical miles (Reeds table), to get the average speed one simply divides the mileage by the time, 492/28 = 17.6 knots, which is almost 18. See, not very complicated. The problem is how could they be secured at the dock 1.5 hours later if they had about 28 more miles to get to the dock through a twisting and turning channel? One should be questioning the data that was given.
As you know, Sam, WSL time of arrival was not the time the ship was safely secured alongside. I refer to your article concerning the maiden voyage of Olympic. That was not a rule exclusive to WQSL but was a rule on board every ship. The voyage time and voyage statistics referred to the time between Pilot disembarked - Full Away On Passage and End of Passage - Engines on Standby i.e. passing a specific reference point or ready to slow down to embark the pilot.
Titanic's voyage round from Belfast to Southampton would be no different and that is where Lightoller would have got his "about 18 knots" speed from.

As usual, the extensive research done by Dr. Paul Lee (as alluded to by Brad) gives specific evidence obtained from Lloyd's List. I quote :
"April 3rd Titanic: 150 miles E of Fastnet - Lizard 10.30am"
That is plainly nonsense. It is 293 miles from Belfast to Lands end and 27.5 miles from Land's End to abeam Lizard Point - a total of 320.5 miles If Titanic left Belfast at 8 pm the previous evening and Lizard Point was abeam at 10-30 am the next morning then she had steamed for 14.5 hours and averaged a speed of 22 knots.
At the Lizard, she still had at least 172 miles to steam. I suggest the addition of "Lizard 10-30am" was the position of the ship that reported Titanic being east of Fastnet at that time
However the Marconi Archive evidence supplied by Dr. Lee state:
"Olympic's PV for April 3rd:.35p "TR Titanic" off Lizard Gd [Good, or GLD- Lizard?] sigs & fairly strong. Nil."
That being so, then Titanic had 172 miles to steam from 1-30 pm to reach the pilot station where she would stop to pick up the pilot and at that time have a bridge conference to discuss next moves up the East Solent. She most certainly would not have charged past the pilot cutter trailing a rope and turning the latter into a ski boat.
If I am correct, then if Titanic averaged 18 Knots from Lizard point to the pilot station then she did not arrive there any earlier than about 11-40 pm. Not only that, but if I remember rightly. first high water at Southampton was near to 2 am April 4. If so, then High Water at Dover was about 3 pm on April 4th. This means that Titanic would have had a strong westerly current against her from about 2 pm up until 8 or 9 pm that evening. It follows that she could not possibly have reached the pilot station before Midnight. (Southampton has a double High Water and a lengthy slack tide)

As for the newspaper reports? I did not know that Hans Christian Andersen was also a newspaper reporter:eek:

Incidentally, a vessel did not enter into Southampton Port Authority jurisdiction until she was abeam of Cowes I.o.W. that being so If Titanic took about an hour and a half to transit the distance from The Nab to the entrance to the port then she did so at about 10 knots which seems just about right, given the conditions. Thereafter, she had another 12 miles of even narrower channel and 2 sharp bends to go to be off the berth. This would put her in the River Tess off the entrance to the dock at or near to 2-45am -3 am and close to slack water. Then they would have to make the tugs fast and turn her. The time would be almost 4 am before they started that last part of the operation and by then, the sky would be beginning to get lighter in the east. Do you get my drift?
 
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Mar 22, 2003
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I'm fully aware of the tidal conditions around the Solent and the tricky turns that have to be negotiated to get into Southampton waters. The problem here for me is lack of hard data that shows arrival and departure times for the passage from Belfast to Southampton. It all would have been entered in her logbook which we don't have. We only have vague mentions of times and speed. What I do know is that when Titanic went to Cherbourg she carried about 68 revs on her props, which means she would have steamed about 20 knots. As I said previously, one should be questioning the data that was given.
 

Jim Currie

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I'm fully aware of the tidal conditions around the Solent and the tricky turns that have to be negotiated to get into Southampton waters. The problem here for me is lack of hard data that shows arrival and departure times for the passage from Belfast to Southampton. It all would have been entered in her logbook which we don't have. We only have vague mentions of times and speed. What I do know is that when Titanic went to Cherbourg she carried about 68 revs on her props, which means she would have steamed about 20 knots. As I said previously, one should be questioning the data that was given.
The main time is departure Belfast. Her arrival at Southampton flows from that. Here is a question i have for you which is part of all this...THAT photgraph. Have you ever considred wha happened the the propeller wash of the lead tug...tthe one that is supposed to be towing the ahip from her berth?
1603740309112.png


You can just make out the tow rope through the cebter lead, but there is no prop wash. Now look at this next one purported to be 10 minutes later?
1603740516630.png


Had another thought about what you wrote Sam.

I know that the marconi records are a little "iffy" conerning the PVs of vesssl during the disaster. Do you think the PV of the Olympic's can be depended on for being reasonably accurate when they exchanged Trs with Titanic and said she was off the Lizard at 1-35pm tht afternoon. If we accept that then that is another independent bit of evidence pointing to a wind up of official records regarding Titanic's arrival at Southampton.
 
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Harland Duzen

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There was not enough water in the West Solent for vessels like the Olympic class with their 30 odd feet draft and beam. Note that RMS Olympic used the West Solent channel. The Spithead area was most frequented by warships. The West Solent was also the main channel for vessels coming from the south or north out of The Channel. There is actually a photograph taken by (I think) father Browne showing one of the west Solent Forts. I suspect it is the Sea Horse Sand Fort It might even be The Nab.
Apologises for butting into this conversation, (bit surprised by the suppose problems of Belfast Depature / Southampton Arrival Time but anyway) but to clarify the location of Francis Browne's photograph (below) for those who might be new here / unaware;

nab Fort.jpg

Francis Browne's photograph was taken roughly pointing West North West and the Fort directly ahead of the camera is No Mans Land Fort (,Horse Sand Fort is out of shot to the Right^). Ships entering and Leaving the Solent would pass each other (and between the two guarding Forts) on their Left or Port side and judging by Titanic's wake, She did pass close to No Mans Land Fort*.

Titanic herself would roughly be in the modern day position of the St Helens Boarding Area where Pilots would either board or disembark the vessel after guiding it through the Solent's channels safely.

Sorry for interrupting this thread, but just wanted to clear up any confusion to newer members. Have a nice day.


^Spitbank Fort might be the greyish shape in the top right of the photograph.

*There is also a photograph by Francis Browne taken from Titanic's Starboard Side of No Mans Land with the town of Ryde (on the Isle of Wight) in the background. This can be seen on TitanicPhotograph.com.
 
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B-rad

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Is there records for the Trinity House pilots (what ship, when, pilot) I've come to dead ends on my search. I heard there are records in London but not what they include. What about logs from Olympic. I've been looking at news paper articles from Olympic's trip after being repaired from its collision with Hawke. The ship was suppose to leave Belfast at 9am but due to the narrowness of it being able to swing it left around 9:30 (or so I gather). When reaching Southampton (I've yet to find a time) it had to lay up by Cowes and wait for tide, but it should still give a pretty good ets. (I understand there are variables).
 
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Cam Houseman

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Is there records for the Trinity House pilots (what ship, when, pilot) I've come to dead ends on my search. I heard there are records in London but not what they include. What about logs from Olympic. I've been looking at news paper articles from Olympic's trip after being repaired from its collision with Hawke. The ship was suppose to leave Belfast at 9am but due to the narrowness of it being able to swing it left around 9:30 (or so I gather). When reaching Southampton (I've yet to find a time) it had to lay up by Cowes and wait for tide, but it should still give a pretty good ets. (I understand there are variables).
Hi B-Rad :)

Logs from Olympic, when?
 

B-rad

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I
Hi B-Rad :)

Logs from Olympic, when?
I was thinking after its repairs from its collision with the hawke. Or if anyone knows any other time. Perhaps another refit. IDK. Just trying to think outside the box and I know others have better access to such info (or at least know where to look lol).
 
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Cam Houseman

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All the photographs labelled as Titanic leaving Southampton have a ? after them but that is verging on s diversion to this thread. The question should be "When would the Crow's nest be manned and who would man it?"
Paul's sketch shows the doorway and handles if fitted would be invisible to anyone below the bulwark rail of the nest so you can rule out that idea. He also shows a midship- fore end staunchion for a weather cloth. As far as I know, there was no such staunchion.
However, if you have a closer look at the picture of her passing the crowd on the quay, you can actually imagine that there is one man in the nest...the black outline to the left of the bell might well be someone standing on something waving with his left hand to someone on the other side.:confused:
I found what you mean, Jim, (months later)
1626060307936.png
 

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