Fr. Browne photos of Olympic

[Bob Read]

Can someone clarify when and where this particular picture was taken by Father Browne?

View attachment 112175

I have seen this picture in several works including On A Sea Of Glass, stating that it was taken on board the Titanic by Father Browne on the ship's A-deck as it was crossing Southampton waters. The crew member in the foreground was thought to be QM Olliver, the young man looking over the railing identified as passenger Jack Odell (who disembarked in Queenstown with Fr Browne) and one of the 3 men in the background as Major Archie Butt. But in Father Browne's Titanic Album edited by O'Donnell, there is uncertainty if this was taken on board the Olympic or Titanic. I am not sure if Odell travelled on the Olympic before he was on the Titanic and in any case, the young man in the picture looks rather older than 11 years, Jack's age at the time he was on the Titanic.

If it was the Titanic while traversing waters around Southampton and one of the men in the background indeed Butt, it proves that as per official reports he did get on board in Southampton while Millett joined him in Cherbourg later that same day. A member queried this in another thread recently.

Hi Arun: This is the caption in E.E. O'Donnell's book of Fr. Browne's photos: "On A-deck, just below the bridge, Frank Browne snaps the only known photograph of this section of deck on either the Titanic or Olympic. The boy on the right is Jack Odell, another member of the family with whom Frank brown is travelling, and in the distance is Major Archibald Butt, military aide to President William Howard Taft. Overhead, a box-like structure conceals the mechanical linkages for the bridge instruments, while on the left are stateroom windows made of particularly heavy-duty brass to withstand any rough weather the ship may face."

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Thanks. I have O'Donnell's book but is there some way of confirming if it really was the Titanic? If it was Jack Odell looking over the rail and if Butt was in the background, it must have been the Titanic, but is there any way to be sure of the identity of the people?

 

[Bob Read]

Thanks. I have O'Donnell's book but is there some way of confirming if it really was the Titanic? If it was Jack Odell looking over the rail and if Butt was in the background, it must have been the Titanic, but is there any way to be sure of the identity of the people?

Arun: Here is a photo taken by the O'Dell's of Jack. He has on the same outfit. I don't have any doubt that Jack is also in the Fr. Browne photo.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Yes, that shows his face more clearly. So, the other photo must have been the Titanic after all.

Did Father Browne number his pictures chronologically? If so, we can check the number on the photograph that I posted and compare it with the easily recognized Browne picture of the close encounter between the Titanic and the New York. Then we can know for certain if my picture was taken near Southampton.

 

[Bob Read]

Yes, that shows his face more clearly. So, the other photo must have been the Titanic after all.

Did Father Browne number his pictures chronologically? If so, we can check the number on the photograph that I posted and compare it with the easily recognized Browne picture of the close encounter between the Titanic and the New York. Then we can know for certain if my picture was taken near Southampton.

I’m not aware of any chronological numbering of Browne’s photos. In fact, I‘ve never even seen where they were dated. We’ve had to use other means. That’s why I asked my question about the date of the Olympic bridge photo.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Did Jack Odell travel on the Olympic before the Titanic disaster ?

 

[Bob Read]

Arun: Do you have doubts that the photo with Jack O’Dell and Archibal Butt is aboard Titanic? I would think that making an identification of Butt in this photo would be the most difficult.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Did Jack Odell travel on the Olympic before the Titanic disaster ?

I don't think so; at least I've not seen anything to suggest he was or to the contrary, Arun. Plus a Google search only mentions that he was aboard the Titanic, including in his biography:

Jack Odell : Titanic Child Passenger from Southampton to Queenstown

11-year-old Titanic first Passenger who disembarked at Queenstown.

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

If he was aboard the Olympic, then I think that would have been mentioned well before now. Since we can recognize Archie Butt standing by the port railing, that is a dead giveaway. Here's the Odell Titanic Album which includes the photo you are asking about; they are all grouped together:

The Odell Titanic Album

The famous collection of photographs from Titanic's maiden voyage

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Arun: Do you have doubts that the photo with Jack O’Dell and Archibal Butt is aboard Titanic? I would think that making an identification of Butt in this photo would be the most difficult.

I personally don't have any doubts except that arose after reading O'Donnell's book where it supposedly showed Butt as one of the 3 men in the background with Jack Odell leaning over the railing. But seemed uncertain whether it was taken on the Olympic or Titanic. But since the boy at the railing has now been confirmed as Jack Odell, the ship must have been the Titanic because he was never on the Olympic before the Titanic sank.

Since we can recognize Archie Butt standing by the port railing

I am sorry but my 67 year old eyes were unable to recognize Butt from that picture. But if he was there as is believed, the ship has to be The Titanic.

By inference therefore, if Major Archibald Butt and Jack Odell were in the same ship travel picture, it must have been taken on board the Titanic,

 

[Bob Read]

Arun: If Browne didn’t leave some notes about those Titanic photos, how would E.E. O’Donnell be able to identify Butt? My sense is that Browne went back and provided more information about his Titanic photos after their importance increased as a result of the sinking.

 

[Mark VII]

Browne added handwritten notes to the photos in his album and he mentions Jack and Butt in the caption of the photo titled “Under the bridge”. Browne compiled the album many years after the sinking so Butt may be a case of mistaken identity. That's not very like though. The verifiable captions are accurate and Browne is not in the business of name dropping. Of all the people in his photographs, he identifies only a few.

 

[Mark VII]

I’m not aware of any chronological numbering of Browne’s photos. In fact, I‘ve never even seen where they were dated. We’ve had to use other means. That’s why I asked my question about the date of the Olympic bridge photo.

I haven't seen any numbering or dating either. As the negatives are missing, there's no proof of the order in which Browne exposed them. To make matters worse, some photos in the album were shot by others and there's even a photo taken on the Adriatic prior to the voyage on the Titanic.

Nevertheless, it's possible to reconstruct the order by comparing the photos with the timeline in the two articles Browne published about his journey. All photos taken by Browne aboard Titanic seem to be in chronological order, except for the photo Browne took of Mr White outside Titanic's gymnasium.

According to Browne's article ("At Sea on the Titanic"), the photo was taken after he and White first met near Portsmouth. My estimate would be that their encounter took place round 2:45 PM.

Browne and White met for a second time on boat deck outside the Gymnasium, the spot where the photo was taken. It's not clear from Browne’s article when he took this photo. So we need to deduce this information from the photo itself, especially White's shadow.

After the Portsmouth, the Titanic continued to steam south-east and then - about 30 minutes later - changed course to south-southwest toward Cherbourg.

I fed this timeframe and course to an app called SunCalc and checked the sun movements along the route to Cherbourg. Outcome is that the sunlight was always coming from the right (towards the starboard side of the ship) during this part of the journey.

As a consequence White's shadow - viewed from Browne's point of view - should have fallen to the left, not behind him. Furthermore, you would expect the shadow to be longer at that time of day than the photo shows.

Could that indicate that the photo was taken the next day?

On 11 April, the Titanic sailed on a west by north route first toward Land's End (Cornwall) - Browne took a photo near this point at 6:45 AM - then headed northwest in the direction of Queenstown / Cobh, to drop anchors at Roche's Point at 12:15 PM. Browne disembarked just before 1:55 PM.

Using this time interval and route, SunCalc calculated that the sunlight was always coming from behind (towards Titanic’s stern, even in the case of “an irregular course in order to test the compass”, as Browne mentions in his article. The photo of Robert Spedden corroborates this direction of sunlight, although the shadows are longer. This means that the photo was taken earlier in the day than the photo of White. This also corresponds with the findings in SunCalc, that renders the best matches - both in angle and length of the shadow - round noun.

Browne may have taken the photo of White near the end of his journey while he was on his way to stateroom A-37. After all, this cabin was only one flight of stairs away from where he was taking White’s photo.

I know: the above is an estimated guess but it's the best I can think of.

 

[Mark VII]

Yes, that shows his face more clearly. So, the other photo must have been the Titanic after all.

Did Father Browne number his pictures chronologically? If so, we can check the number on the photograph that I posted and compare it with the easily recognized Browne picture of the close encounter between the Titanic and the New York. Then we can know for certain if my picture was taken near Southampton.

BTW According tot SunCalc, QM Olliver’s shadow is in line with Titanic’s course on the 10th of April 1912 and confirms the sequence in which the photo appears in the album.

 

[JTPrater]

Can someone clarify when and where this particular picture was taken by Father Browne?

View attachment 112175

I have seen this picture in several works including On A Sea Of Glass, stating that it was taken on board the Titanic by Father Browne on the ship's A-deck as it was crossing Southampton waters. The crew member in the foreground was thought to be QM Olliver, the young man looking over the railing identified as passenger Jack Odell (who disembarked in Queenstown with Fr Browne) and one of the 3 men in the background as Major Archie Butt. But in Father Browne's Titanic Album edited by O'Donnell, there is uncertainty if this was taken on board the Olympic or Titanic. I am not sure if Odell travelled on the Olympic before he was on the Titanic and in any case, the young man in the picture looks rather older than 11 years, Jack's age at the time he was on the Titanic.

If it was the Titanic while traversing waters around Southampton and one of the men in the background indeed Butt, it proves that as per official reports he did get on board in Southampton while Millett joined him in Cherbourg later that same day. A member queried this in another thread recently.

Looks like Titanic's forward A deck.. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Looks like Titanic's forward A deck.. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, just underneath the bridge. Already mentioned in Robert Read's post #16, at the top of the page.