Gates?


Jul 7, 2002
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>Also, what you can't see in this picture is the gates at the foot of the stair well that locked 3rd classers in.

I think the author means that if you go down these stairs you will see a gate at the foot of the stairs. Like Michael, I question the author's uncited source. I have not seen *any* evidence of a gate at this location.

Thanks for posting the picture of the deck plans, Sam!

Best wishes,

Cathy
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>Like Michael, I question the author's uncited source.<<

For whatever it may be worth, the website looks like something that was set up as a student's project for school studies. The homepage is at http://members.aol.com/wakkow5/titnsis.html and it doesn't look like it's been updated or revised for at least 8 years.

I may be misreading the tea leaves on this.

No matter, it just doesn't make any sense for barriers to be put in place to restrict access to a part of the ship that the steerage had a perfect right to go to. Looking at the photo, I saw no evidence of any sort of barrier whatever.
 
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Matt Pereira

Guest
Couldnt it be possible that there was a gate there at the bottom of the stairs up to the well deck to keep steerage passengers from going up to the well deck when the cranes were being operated to prevent them from interfering with the crew`s job to make final preperations before casting off and then was opened and locked in open position once the well deck was cleared?

I also read somewheres that there was supposed to be gates atop the stairs to the fore deck to keep it crew only. Not sure if thats true but I kinda doubt that since I dont see proof on the wreck in the form of hinges for the gate to swing on.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Can you show me any such gates at the bottom of the stairs on any extant photos of the Titanic? There are several about and I've seen none such. Nor can I think of any reason for them to be there. The waist high gate at the top would be sufficient, and that's what the witnesses spoke to in their testimony.
 
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Matt Pereira

Guest
Im just saying isnt it possible that theres a fold away gate that just isnt visable at the bottom of the stairwell that was being talked about above to keep 3rd class off the well deck when the crew was using the deck while in dock to make things easier, just sounds logical. Plus most photos are of Olympic that were taken how do we know Titanic didnt have gates on those stairwells and Olympic didnt cause Titanic was supposed to be a improvement of Olympic from the Enclosed foreward A deck and everything else well they could have done that. Not sure if they explored that staircase or not since i didnt see the recent exploration they had on tv.

Also I read above that many 3rd class passengers used Scottlandroad well if thats true dose that mean that the watertight doors located aft by the turbine/engine upcasting were open to allow third class passengers to transmitt?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>Im just saying isnt it possible that theres a fold away gate that just isnt visable at the bottom of the stairwell...<<

Unlikely. The available evidence just doesn't support the proposition and I've seen none in any photos of this area on any of the Olympic class liners.
 
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Matt Pereira

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Well like ive been told by some on this site before in the past just cause Olympic dosent have it dosent mean Titanic dosent also, or just cause Britannic has it means that Titanic dosent. Each ship was overall the same/simmilar but they also were very different also. Only way to be sure if there was or was no gate in that location would be to visit that location in the wreck. There is still a possibility that it wont be there but it was there at one time and just got knocked down or if in open position rust covered it up and hidden it as being a gate.

Just like the D deck entry doors, I remember hearing that no one knew what they looked like or IF there was even gates there till they saw them in GOTA. Im not trying to argue im just stating that theres no way to be 100% sure we can be fairly sure and we can also be fairly sure and still end up being proven wrong.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Matt, there are photos of this area on the Titanic and there are any number of plans still extant which show the location of the gates in question. The gates at the top of the ladders are documented. Gates at the base are not.

Speculation is interesting but we need some tangible evidence to support it before it can be called a fact.
 
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Matt Pereira

Guest
OK, Michael well what about the Scotland road, above says that man 3rd class passengers used the passageway, Well what about the "Supposedly" closed wtd`s at the aft end of scotland road. They would have to have been open to allow 3rd class passengers from the stern to use the passageway or were they closed?

Also could a passenger open those doors or did the crew have a special tool like with the windows on A deck that would open the doors?
 
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Bruce Beveridge

Guest
Matt,

Those sections of 3rd class on E Deck, between the watertight doors (sections M and K), had access up to the top decks via emergency doors in the 2nd class main companionways. These were all open according to testimony. The after 3rd class on E Deck in section Q had access to the upper decks via their main companionway. This is the companionway in discussion here that terminates in the after well. There were no folding gates at the foot of these. Yes, Olympic and Titanic had differences, and for all we know, they could have painted the Titanic's interior doors purple, but the Limitation of Liability general arrangement plans issued by H&W to the court proceedings show the locations of these bostwick gates, and there were none connected to the 3rd class main companionway - and I would expect there wouldn't be.

As for keeping them off the well deck when loading cargo - I'm sure the refrigerated stores were well on board before the 3rd class entered the ship.

Much of this hype about locked down passengers is way over the top. Most of these people either refused to go, or were left with no-one to show them how to get out. There were cases where a steward(s) held people back for a period, and we have the story of the gate at the top of fore well to B deck stairs (which could be straddled over, and was secured but not locked), but other then that, the issue was a case where people didn't know where to go, rather then being kept back. This is one reason why emergency escape plans were issued later on.

The BOT regulations stated that it was illegal to lock a steerage emergency exit from the cabin class side of the door.

Bruce Beveridge
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>...well what about...<<

Matt, if I may, that long list of "Whatabouts" has nothing to do with your base premise that there may have been gates at the base of the ladder leading up from the well deck. We have evidence by way of testimony as well as extant ships plans and some photographs as to the gates in question being at the top of that ladder, and none whatever of any such at the bottom.

Zip.
Zilch.
Zero.
Nada.
None.

If you have primary source data which conclusively proves otherwise, by all means, offer same or the appropriate citation. Otherwise, we're just overthinking the problem with unfounded speculation.
 
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Matt Pereira

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well the what about wasnt pertaining to the gates at the bottom of the stairwell i didnt say i agreed i dont see them either but i was just stating how do we know for sure. I see alot about how on the blueprints some gates are shown and some arent in the aft end of the 3rd class areas from what was said above i was just stating how can we be so sure just by speculating about a photograph which i dont even know if its prooveable to be of titanic.

I was asking about scotland Road i didnt understand that, to me it sounded like they were going across the wtd`s and i was wondering if thats what they ment. The plans ive seen from this site dosent exactly show which stairs goes up and which stairs goes down or to which deck,ect
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>well the what about wasnt pertaining to the gates at the bottom of the stairwe<<

No, but your original question was about exactly that, and that's what I was dealing with.

>>...but i was just stating how do we know for sure.<<

By examining the available evidence.
 

Bryan Ciobanu

Member
Apr 22, 2005
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Right... a quick summary:

1 gate, at the top of the stairs from the forward Well Deck to the B-Deck promenade.

2 gates at the top of the stairs from the aft Well Deck to the aft B-Deck promenade.

right?

Now...
the Bostwick gates on the E-deck (on the top of the stairs going up to D-Deck and the open space). these makes no sense!

-Why stop the 3rd class passengers from going to their own Open Space, or down to their cabins?

strange... strange indeed...

B.A.C
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>right? <<

Well, that's what's been proposed here. As I indicated, there is no evidence of any kind to support it.

>>the Bostwick gates on the E-deck (on the top of the stairs going up to D-Deck and the open space). these makes no sense! <<

Especially since there is no evidence whatever to support that one either. The location of the two Bostwick gates that existed are known. While it's possible that there might be something else, one has to wonder why the Titanic's owners and builders would even bother to hide them when they hid nothing else.

Personally, I think that any such speculation falls into the catagory of "Overthinking The Problem." and all based on the assumption that a lot of the stories making it into the popular lore about "locked gates" are true.

They're not!

However, that base assumption is so deeply ingrained in the whole Titanic legend that people think that somehow, it's just...just....just...got to have something to it. That it's just...just....just...got to be true so they start looking for things that aren't there and never were. Bruce said it best in his post above about a lot of the stories being over the top. Hell, the gates we know existed weren't even locked and could be easily climbed or vaulted over when closed.
 

Steven Hall

Member
Dec 17, 2008
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Michael and Sam have summed it up.
With Bruce Beveridge adding his thoughts - the issue is void of substance.
 
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Matt Pereira

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I doubt there was but was there any form of gate/baricade that closed off the fore end of Scotland road or was it just a open hall way denoating that the passageway was for crew only with a crew member on guard to keep passengers out?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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I doubt very much that there would be crewmembers gaurding doors just to keep passengers out of areas that they were not supposed to be in. Even a ship the size of the Titanic carried only what was essential to operate the ship, and the line was always looking for ways to cut corners as a matter of practical business sense. In short, there were no gaurds posted because there was really nobody available to do the job. They were needed elsewhere.

Besides, it's not as if there would have been that much of a need. People in that day tended on the whole to be a bit more respectful of authority, so if there was a sign in place giving notice of a restriction, they tended to obey it.

>>but was there any form of gate/baricade that closed off the fore end of Scotland road <<

Not that I've seen on any extant plans, and I'm not aware of any evidence for same in any of the documentation that I've seen. Scotland Road was pretty much a common thoroughfare.
 
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Matt Pereira

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Thats what ive thought but i was just wondering i totaly forgot that people were more respectful to the athority but i was thinking about the 3rd class passengers that couldnt read the english signs they would most likely wander down the passageway once or twice thats why i was wondering.
 

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