J

João Carlos Pereira Martins

Guest
I've been researching in Wikipedia since two or three ago.

Randy, I'm looking forward for your article regarding Noelle and I hope it to be up very soon! As you can see she's my favourite passenger and I would like to know a bit more details of her and her life. I think she was a really nice woman.

Best regards, João
 

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
6
183
Hi Randy,

Really looking forward to reading your forthcoming article! Did you have any luck tracking down the Countess' final resting place eventually? Last I looked into it, I was disappointed to learn she was not interred with her titled first husband as I had previously suspected.

If we could establish where MacFie was buried, that could be our next investigative port of call.

Hope this finds you well.

Ben
 
Mar 20, 2000
3,107
28
323
Hi, Ben:

"….Really looking forward to reading your forthcoming article!…."

Me, too! As you know, Phil’s been busy expanding the site, and I would have to add to his workload with another big article. But it’s a story that was fun to do, and I hope you and others will enjoy finding out about Noelle, an inspiring woman.

"….Did you have any luck tracking down the Countess' final resting place eventually?…."

Unfortunately, not. I had high hopes of being able to include that information in the article but it will remain to somebody like you -— a card-carrying graveyard sleuth! — to locate her grave.

"….Last I looked into it, I was disappointed to learn she was not interred with her titled first husband as I had previously suspected…."

Yes, that’s what Malcolm Cheape found, too, when he visited Leslie House this spring. He located Norman’s grave marker on the outside of the family mausoleum but none was seen for Noelle. The ET thread link below has more about Malcolm’s visit, including photos of the grounds and interiors.

https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5811/101664.html

"….If we could establish where MacFie was buried, that could be our next investigative port of call…."

Yes. I haven’t tracked that down, either. Noelle died in Howe, where Macfie is known to have had family and property, so it’s a possibility they are both buried there.

"….Hope this finds you well…."

Yes, "Tolerably," as the old folks used to say!

Best wishes to you,
Randy
PS) I forget —— don’t you live in Sussex? Perhaps Howe isn’t far from you?
 

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
6
183
Hi Randy,

Thanks for your reply.

The corollary appears to be that Noelle ended up with her second husband, Claude MacFie, possibly in Sussex as you suggest.

I'm not seeing a "Howe, Sussex" on the road atlas, though, and wondered if perhaps Howe referred to HOVE on the South Coast? I notice there are "Howe's" in other counties, however.

Let me know and I'll make further inquiries.

All the best!
Ben
 
Mar 20, 2000
3,107
28
323
Ben:

Forgive the bit about "Howe." I must not have had my "spectacles" on — you know I’m blind as a bat.

I meant "Hove," as you suggest. Sounds a lot nicer than Howe, too! I had an awful vision of the countess dying in a village of rap stars.

It would be great if you could locate the grave!

Randy
 

Mary Hamric

Member
May 4, 1999
139
4
263
Thanks for posting these Wikipedia links. This is intriguing to me that Gladys met her brother in New York. The reason is, my grandmother's maiden name was Cherry and she was from New York. I've often wondered if I am somehow related to Gladys Cherry. I just haven't had the time to really do the research.
 

Kyrila Scully

Member
Apr 15, 2001
2,079
33
243
South Florida
You can do free genealogy research at www.familysearch.org. This site is run by the Mormons, but it's strictly about genealogy. I use this site in my job and have had great success with my research. I am told by people who work with this website that Ancestry.com used to get all their information from FamilySearch.org, but are not allowed to use their information any more as of December, 2007. I like that it's FREE.

Good luck with your trace.

Kyrila
 

James Smith

Member
Dec 5, 2001
490
7
183
Hi Kyrila -

I think your friend may have had it backwards, of sorts. Relations between Ancestry.com and the Mormon church have a long (in internet time, anyways), sordid history.

See, the Mormon-run Family History Library sends teams out all over the world, microfilming vital records held at local libraries, courthouses, and churches. These microfilms can be accessed by the public for free, either at the FHL or at your local Mormon Family History Center.

Now, the for-profit Ancestry.com also sends teams out all over the world, scanning vital records held at libraries, courthouses, and churches. These scans are accessible by the public for a very hefty fee.

So there's naturally some tension between the two: Ancestry sees the Mormon family history centers as a threat to its existence by providing users with a "free" alternative to Ancestry.com's services. But Ancestry.com at least had the advantage that its databases could be accessed in the comfort of the researcher's own home.

But those days are limited. The Mormon church has announced plans to digitize every single record held by its Family History Library, and to eventually have them accessible via familysearch.org--for free. Ancestry.com responded by trying to get the holders of the original records it scans to sign agreements promising not to allow the Mormons to scan their records.

Last Spring, things came to a head. The Family History Library and Ancestry.com had had an agreement whereby one could get full access to Ancestry.com at one's local Family History Center. Ancestry.com refused to renew the agreement.

I don't know what kind of negotiations went on behind the scenes, but some kind of agreement was reached late last year. You can now (as before) access Ancestry.com's full collection from any Family History Center.

--Jim
 
Mar 20, 2007
734
1
123
I've just been trawling through the archives of the London 'Times' and have been amazed and delighted to learn that one of Julia Siegel's fellow bridesmaids at the wedding of her step-sister, Georgine Wilde, to Count Carlo Dentice de Frasso in London in 1906 was none other than Gladys Cherry, daughter of Lady Emily Cherry and cousin by marriage of the Countess of Rothes! This does, I think, go to prove the previously unconfirmed hypothesis that Noelle, Gladys and the Cavendishes were all acquainted BEFORE they sailed on the 'Titanic'.
 
Mar 20, 2007
734
1
123
I've been interested to discover that Gladys Cherry's father, James Frederick Cherry, acted as Clerk and Librarian at the Royal Naval College in Greenwich. He married Gladys's mother, Lady Emily Louisa Haworth-Leslie, on 25th April 1871 and the couple had three children - Charles, the eldest, who greeted and cared for his sister in New York when she disembarked from the 'Carpathia'; Miriam, who married one Herbert Taylor; and Gladys herself. As his younger daughter's place of birth is listed as Greenwich, I assume that her father was still employed by the Naval College in the summer of 1881 - although he subsequently died just two months short of her third birthday, in June 1884.

By 1907, the widowed Lady Emily was residing at No. 44 Wetherby Mansions on the boundary between South Kensington and Earl's Court. It seems likely that Gladys, young and single, would still have been living at home at this stage. Not that her mother would have lacked for family company, mind you; two of her unmarried sisters, the Ladies Mary Euphrasia and Alice Julia, co-habited in the same mansion block, at No. 26. By chance, a friend of mine lives in Wetherby Mansions and, from my own experience, I can testify that they are very much in the imposing style so popular with architects in the smarter areas of London in the late-Victorian period, and closely resemble the flats lived in by the Wilcox family in the marvellous 1992 film adaptation of E.M. Forster's 'Howard's End'. It should be remembered that a London flat back then was considerably more spacious than a newly-built house today, and Wetherby Mansions would have been an eminently respectable address for a member of the prosperous urban upper-middle class (or, in this instance, the lower rungs of the aristocracy).
 

Brian Ahern

Member
Dec 19, 2002
645
7
183
Thanks for sharing this information, Martin (especially for evoking the Wilcox flat as a point of reference).

So James Frederick would have been considered a civil servant? It always interests me to consider which British civil service jobs would be suitable for a well-educated, well-born young gentleman (which I assume JFC was).

Finances of minor aristocrats always interest me as well. Lady Emily appears to have lived in relative comfort and elegance, though she had been a widow for years and the Leslies are often represented as having seen their fortunes decline by this period.
 
Mar 20, 2007
734
1
123
Hi Brian

I'm not at all sure about this but my gut reaction is that Gladys' father was not technically a civil servant - or, if so, only in the loosest sense. I imagine his status to have been roughly equivalent to that of a don or librarian at one of the Oxbridge colleges, a position requiring a high degree of education and good connections to boot. I've no idea what sort of salary was entailed but I'm confident that James would have been considered a 'gentleman' by his contemporaries - which, in turn, would have allowed him to contract a marriage with a daughter of a noble house.

As for Lady Emily's own finances: her degree of wealth or poverty would, no doubt, have been a very relative matter. The Leslies were not considered 'rich' by the standards of the late Victorian and Edwardian aristocracy - but Norman and Noelle Rothes were hardly on the breadline. I have speculated in the past that Gladys would almost certainly have been presented at Court, and given a proper 'Season', as befitted a girl of her class - I briefly perused the on-line archives of the London 'Times' (frustratingly difficult to access: I hope you have more luck than me!) and there were several references to Gladys, Lady Emily and the Rothes in the Society columns of the day. I made a note, since mislaid, of the dates when Gladys and Julia Siegel Cavendish (the girls were obviously acquainted) made their curtsies and I also discovered that Norman and Noelle were present at the Royal Albert Hall, in 1913, I seem to remember, and in full costume, at one of those epic historical pageants so beloved of Society in the run-up to the Great War. I mean to chase up these references at a future date. But, in any case, none of this suggests a degree of penury!

All the best for now - and a Merry Christmas to you.

Martin
 

Mary Hamric

Member
May 4, 1999
139
4
263
Cherry was my grandmother's maiden name. I haven't been able (yet) to trace it and see if there is any connection to Gladys Cherry or not.
 

Arne Mjåland

Member
Oct 21, 2001
213
0
181
Gladys died in Godalming. I asked the Surrey History Centre. Woking if the local newspapers had written anything upon her death. They answered: "I guess her connection with Godakming was slight, and that she may not have lived there very long. It is possible that none living there who knew her had any inkling of the part she played in the Titanic disaster. She may, herself wished to forget it. We do not know the corcumstances of her death, so it is possible she may have died in a nursing home or similar and for whatever reason was unable to pass on her memories". Anybody else who may have anything about her in later life?
 

B-rad

Member
Jul 1, 2015
606
206
108
39
Tacoma, WA
In George Behe's 'On Board The RMS Titanic', it has a letter attributed to Gladys Cherry, dated, “While on board the Carpathia Wednesday, 17th April, 1912 4.15.” It reads:

"We have been on here since Monday at 8:30 A.M., when we were picked up, and I have not been able to write a line before, it has been too ghastly, and I still seem dazed.
Sunday night on the Titanic, it got very, very cold, icy, and I asked the Steward why it was so cold, and he said it was icebergs, but we did not slow down at all and were going 22 knots per hour.
Noel and I went to bed at 10 p.m. very gay we felt that night, and at a quarter to 12 we were awakened by an awful sort of bang and the engines stopping suddenly., we had an extraordinary feeling that something dreadful had happened, as when the engines stopped there was a terrible silence, then the awful noise of steam being let off, then we heard on or two people walking up and down the passage, so we got up and asked a steward what had happened, he said we had struck an iceberg, so this rather excited us and we put on our dressing gown and fur coats, and went up on deck, and went forward and saw the bow of the ship covered in ice- but we could not see the berg; we watched a bit on deck and talked and then wondered if we should go back to bed or not, when suddenly the Captain appeared and said, 'I don't want to frighten anyone, but will you all go quietly and put on your life belts and go up on the top deck?' we all dispersed very calmly and slowly, and got to our own stateroom..."

This is sourced as coming from Hester Julian, Memorials of Henry Forbes Julian, and the Atlantic Daily Bulletin. I have found the first source, and it reads somewhat different, the first noticeable difference being the fact that it does not credit the letters to anyone, instead it merely reads, “Permission has kindly been given to include the letters of one of the ladies amongst the surviving British first-class saloon passengers, picked up by the Carpathia from the Titanic boats. These letters (being written by an eye-witness to a near relative immediately after the catastrophe) are specially worthy of note.” The letter itself reads:

ON BOARD THE Carpathia
Wednesday
, 17th April, 1912. 4.15.

"...we have been on this vessel since Monday at 8:30 A.M., when we were picked up, and I have not been able to write a line before; it has been too ghastly, and I still seem dazed.
Sunday night on the Titanic got very, very cold, icy, and I asked the steward why it was so cold. He said we must be in the region of ice.... N--- and I went to bed at ten... at a quarter to twelve we were awaken by an awful sort of bang and the engines stopping suddenly. We had an extraordinary feeling that something dreadful had happened, as when the engine stopped there was a terrible silence and then the awful noise of steam being let off. We heard one or two peopl walking up and down the passage, so we got up and asked the steward what had happened. He said we had struck an iceberg. This excited us, and we put on dressing-gowns and fur coats and went up on deck. We went forward and saw the bow of the ship covered in ice, but we could not see the berg. We walked about on deck and talked, and wondered if we should go back to bed or not, when suddenly the Purser appeared and said: “Will you all go quietly and put on warm clothing and your life-belts, and go up on the top deck? The women and children will be put in the lifeboats first.”
we all dispersed very calmly, got to our own state-room,..."

As can been seen, there is some noticeable differences between the two publications. The main difference I am of concern with, is the statement that in Behe's version the Captain told them to dawn lifebelts, while in the other version it was the Purser.

In the article, 'Lady Rothes Describes the Horror of Survivors' Chase of Phantom Light', published in the New York Herald on April 22, 1912, has her stating:

“I went to bed at half-past seven,” she said, “and my cousin, Miss Gladys Cherry, who shared my room -No.77 on deck B.- also retired. It was bitterly cold. I was awakened by a slight jar and then a grating noise. I turned on the light and saw that it was 11:46, and I wondered at the sudden quiet. Gladys had not been awakened and I called her and asked did she not think it strange that the engines had stopped. As I opened our cabin door I saw a steward. He said we had struck some ice. Our fur coats over our night gowns were all the clothes we had. My cousin asked the chief steward if there was any danger and he answered, 'Oh, no, we have just grazed some ice and it does not amount to anything.'
The Call for Lifebelts
“As we hurried along Lambert Williams came up and explained that the watertight compartments must surely hold. Just then an officer hurried by,“'Will you all get lifebelts on! Dress warmly and come up to A deck!' Quite stunned by the order, we all went. As I was going going in to our stateroom my maid said water was pouring into the racquet court.

Later Rothes would speak of Mr. Brown the purser (there was no purser named Brown, perhaps it is meant to read Barker), and Captain Smith who she stood 'shoulder to shoulder' with, which means, that at least she knew these men by sight, and would have stated if one of them had said to put on lifebelts. Overall, we have three different possibilities, Captain Smith, a Purser or an Officer.

Does anyone have any other sources that may clarify these? I can't find Behe's second source. Is this where the 'Captain' came from?
 

Similar threads

Similar threads