Gracie autograph


Status
Not open for further replies.
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
Hiya

I am new here. Have been interested in the Titanic for many years.
Recently I bought a booked signed by Survivor Gracie. Like us all
when we buy Titanic items we often have second thoughts about
provenance. I suppose you can’t always be 100 % sure.

As I am new to this board I am not sure if any of the world renowned
Titanic experts come on here. I think I remember someone saying they
Do. Would they be so kind as to offer their royal opinion on my book ?
I’d also be interested in what other normal Titanic buff like myself
think.

This is what the Titanic Historical Society said:

Dear Mr Lehmann

Welcome aboard.

I used to give lectures on handwriting analysis, it has been one of my
avocations for many years. Giving the Gracie signature a glance, according
to one we have to make a comparison, it appears to be the real thing. I am
hesitant to offer an opinion as are other officers on some subjects, because
help as a goodwill gesture has come back to bite us. A scan of our Gracie
signature isn’t possible, it is in a glass picture frame.

I am very familiar with the history of that book, I wrote an article about it for the
Commutator. It was in No 149, 2000, that is why it was logical Gracie would have been able to sign it. Here is the link:

That was from Mrs Kaumda.

link
85910.jpg
 
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
She was not referring to this very book but just the book in general.

What led me to have second thoughts was this. He had captain Smith’s autograph up for sale with Duff Gordons. He was going to sell them for $1600. I again sent the scans to THS and they said my dads cautious advice was correct and to keep my money. Do not buy them, although they would not tell me what they thought of the scans.

LETTER TO SELLER VARIOUS PEOPLE: SORRY IF ALL THIS BORES YOU.

My father is also now sceptical about the Captain Smith, Duff Gordon and Gracie autographs one of which I have almost bought — The signed Gracie book. My father wisely told me why dose someone sell something so cheaply when they say they could fetch so much more for a Captain Smith autograph elsewhere? Maybe it is because the autograph lacks real provenance. If the item had any real solid prominence or just a bit of history as back up then that is when when Captain Smith autographs start to fetch BIG money. Maybe that is what this piece lacks hence why it is being sold cheaply. Of course I maybe very wrong and there maybe some history to back it up. But so far all I have been told is it came from a collection in Southampton and was signed when Smith was with Captain of the Olympic. Anyone can write a certificate of authenticity. I understand it is hard to determine if something is the real thing or not. Imagine how easier it would be to make a fake Captain Smith autograph when people are busy at work forging great works of art by famous artists. I understand people even question the authenticity of the Mona Lisa. That’s not to say these items are not the real thing or quite in that league.


Anyway these items looked good to me. However what has caused my concern and great worry is this. I offered to pay the seller for the Captain Smith and Duff-Gordon autograph with what we call in the UK a money mover. It is a very fast way of paying directly from a UK account into a U.S account but the company or person you are paying must give you the details of where the money is to go. This is something he WILL not do yet he wants fast payment. This is where my worry started. These were his suggested fast ways of making payments:

,
Buy US dollars, Cash and send. You can also buy Travelers Money made out in US Dollars. I do not know how they do it out there, but they do and it is sent to me a lot on big dollar items. Check into this.
Regards,
Frank


Dear frank
Why won't you let me make a direct payment into your account ? I could pay you a lot faster this way. Surly sending US dollars cash in the post is not wise and nor is sending travellers checks. I would have no record of where my money went if something went wrong. Again this has caused me worry not only about the money I may loose but about whom I am thinking of buying the autographs from.

,
I just do not like the direct account access.
Listen, you know that I am a man of my word, and I give nothing less. If for some reason the funds got lost, or something happened...for some reason or another, the item would still be sent to you and I would take the loss. You are at no risk. That is the way I do business. Stop worrying and trust me.
We will become good friends by trust.
Kindest Regards,
Frank


,
Nostalgic is my company.
Make anything out to my Name ...........Frank Manfredi
Regards,
Frank

I don't not understand why he writes this email ( below). Of course I am going to ask the seller questions about such a sort after item - hence it will take up his time. Having said that he has been some what cagey about the item and giving letting me make a fast payment into his account.

,
Please don't tell me that you canceled the Money Order (Funds) that you sent for the Archiebald Gracie signed book..? [user], I will be very upset...!! I state in my emails the method of payment and noting other than that. I have perfect feedback and nothing to make any doubt of this transaction being a positive outcome.
If you canceled the payment, and you have to resend funds for the other auction, I am going to be very upset. I have spent too much time with you, emailing you wasting time, answering....message after message more than any other person that I ever sold something to. The time invested actually made me loose money. I hope that you have not delayed this transaction as I have been very fair with you and honest.
Regards,
Frank
The book.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3905652944



[user],
The signature and any other examples, comes with a great COA from Nostalgic Auctions / N.G.A. Authenticating service. It is a great COA that is very detailed and Color Graphic on high quality format.

I usually charge $200.00 to authenticate items that are sent to my company but since this item is coming from my collection. I will send the COA with this item at no extra charge.
I am an Authority on signed memorbilia and Titanic memorbilia.

About me:
I have been in the business for over 20 years. I am an expert in Historical manuscripts, Historical Documents and Autographs and original Titanic artifacts. I have had many of my collections on display at National conventions. I have been on TV and Antique watch, live on the Internet, and written up in the National magazine S.C.D publication. I had my Titanic Collection on display at the Atlantic City National Antique Convention.

Also:
I also own the largest collection of Original Photographs purchased direct entire files from the New York Times, NY Daly News, Phila Evening Bulletin, and Philadelphia Record.
I purchased over 5000+ Negatives and own all the photography that they ever photographed for the newspapers. The signatures after 1900 were in collections that came from news reporters of the day. I purchased many autographed albums, postcards that were signed and photographs over the years. Some of the signatures were received by freelance photojournalist that took the photographs for National publicity shots and for Newspaper departments around the world.
I hope that explains how I have such great knowledge, expertise and a wonderful collection.
Let me know what you think.
Regards,
Frank

WHAT THE EBAY SELLER SAYS.

[user],
First, you are wrong, and wrong again..!
The reason why I say that is you bid on my item, you read the description, where I was from, saw my feedback and if you looked, I am a Power Seller, a Top Rated seller on eBay.
I sell only autographs, and only autographs on eBay. My feedback speaks for the type of business I conduct, and quality product / merchandise that I sell. I think that you being confused from the start, not being sure about what you were doing, why you were bidding, and what ever else pecked at your decision making. All I know, is that I answered every one of your questions. The delay in answering was only because I get about 50 emails a day and a lot of them are specific and detailed that are concerning merchandise. I have no reason to every get bad feedback on this transaction, the fact that you would even mention that I have a concern, has not even entered my mind. You on the other hand do deserve negative feedback, but I am not one to judge that as your conscience for not paying for something that you committed to, well, you have to live with that. I can tell you that most of the Titanic items that are sold on eBay are mine, and if you do not at least follow through with the ebay item" Archiebald Gracie signed Book", I will have to file a non paying bidder.

I do not care about the other items that I offered you, as that is behind us.
I take very serious of NON Paying Bidders. I am not desperate to sell anything but when I devote time and energy in selling something and that person commits to buying, then the next step is to move the transaction to final stages. When there are delays, I try to push them through, make things work faster to get funds, and to ship the merchandise to the person.
Also, you statements about the item "lacking the real prominence" is a bogus statement, and is a "Tap dance" statement to get out of buying the item. Here is the prominence, I also own a Rare historic, Archiebald Gracie signed personal check. There are about 5 of these in the world. As you can see from the SCAN IN THIS EMAIL, you will see that the signature on the Check of Gracie is Exact to the signature on the Book that you won. Check it out and then tell me that the item lacks the real prominence, I can tell you that it is the real deal and nothing less. It upsets me even more to have to defend something that real. It is like someone saying that you did a crime when you weren't even there to begin with. I do not want our emails to make out feathers roughed and us to get off on the wrong foot. Lets try to make good from this and at least finalize the Archiebald Gracie transaction. I did receive the Check today, and I deposited the funds. Please do not do anything with the funds as my bank is good to me and knows that I deal with good ebay buyers and I do not want any checks to bounce. It looks bad for me and business that I do with my back. I do not want them to think that I deal with "dead Beats" buyers, when I don't. Look at this scan, in this email and this should help you to again, with my efforts, try to help you to trust my merchandise and professionalism. Please tell me that you did not stop payment on that Check for the Archiebald Gracie Check..?
Let me know.
Regards,
Frank

Dear Frank
I will honour the Ebay transaction. I never meant to cause you any upset. Please understand I am just worried about the authenticity of what I am buying. When you have a world-renowned Titanic society telling you to keep your money and be cautious about the other items you have for sale such as the EJ Smith autograph, that is when I started to worry about the signed Gracie book. I have taken the stop of the check — just in time. You say you will send me a C.O.A — I would be grateful if you could.
Thanks
 
C

Christine Geyer

Guest
Dear Miles,

welcome aboard.

I almost don't dare to say but... Gracie died before his book was published! So there's NO chance this could be authentic. The selling of his signed Titanic book has been a topic on ET before. For example see here.

Regards
Christine
 
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
I wonder if Mrs Kaumda meant COULDNT have signed it. She was not clear in her email. It was fast and to the point. She wrote - this is why it is logical he could have signed it..... Have phoned the bank to put a stop on the check....
 
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
I have put a stop on the check. he paid it in today - and the weekend are not bankers days for the UK hence even if they cancel it on Monday I should be ok. Also im sure you don't include Sunday in the time it takes for a check to clear.
 
Sep 26, 1999
711
2
263
The book that has his signature is not his book but one of the many other books that came out about the disaster in 1912, he could have possibly signed a copy.
 
C

Christine Geyer

Guest
Yiiiks you're right, it's not Gracies own! *blushing*
 
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
What difference dose it make if he owned it or if he did not own a copy ? Fact is ether way the book came out after he died.
 

George Behe

Member
Dec 11, 1999
1,280
12
313
Hi, Miles!

Your Gracie autograph is so similar to the genuine autograph that appears on Gracie's private letter to Washington Dodge that I suspect yours might well be the real McCoy.

All my best,

George
 
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
Well it is gone now. I have had enough
sad.gif
(( Most people told me it was a fake and could not have been signed by him.....
 

George Behe

Member
Dec 11, 1999
1,280
12
313
P.S.

>What difference dose it make if he owned it or if >he did not own a copy ? Fact is ether way the book >came out after he died.

I'm afraid you're mistaken. The book "Sinking of the Titanic and Great Sea Disasters" came out almost within days of the Carpathia's arrival in New York, so Gracie (who didn't die until December) would have had around eight months during which he could have autographed the book in question.

All my best,

George
 
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
Well I can't phone up the bank again for a third time. They will think I am mad.
 
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
I really need to chill.

I bought this also... Again cost a bit - any information ?

85918.jpg
 

George Behe

Member
Dec 11, 1999
1,280
12
313
Hi, Miles!

>Then I had an email this afternoon with a number of >people saying it was fake and that he died before >signing it.

Your informants probably jumped to the hasty conclusion that your book is a copy of the book that Gracie himself wrote about the disaster ("The Truth About the Titanic") which was not published until after Gracie's death. Darren Honeycutt (Hi, Darren!) scrutinized your scan more carefully than everyone else, though, and he gave you the correct information about your book's early publication date.

I'm sorry that all of the conflicting information you received caused you to throw up your hands in despair. In the future, you might want to ask for the names of specific Titanic researchers who are well versed in the subject you'd like to learn more about. Steve Santini and a number of other highly-qualified ET folks will be more than glad to help you out regarding your questions about Titanic memorabilia.

Regarding your autograph of Arthur Lewis, I can only compare it to his autograph from 1912 (which it does not resemble.) However, a person's handwriting tends to 'evolve' throughout his lifetime, so it's still possible that your Lewis autograph (which he would have given as an elderly man) might be authentic.

For what it's worth.

All my best,

George
 
Mar 10, 1998
1,128
6
313
Miles,
Your autograph of Arthur E. R. Lewis appears to be genuine. I own an old THS Commutator magazine that he autographed late in life and it appears identical to the one you have.

Phil
 
G

Guest (R17)

Guest
Thanks for letting me know that. I paid £500 for that cover.

Now about the Gracie book. I don't know what to do. One of the most well known Titanic experts has told me it looks pretty real. But so many people have told me it is a fake, and it appears they may well be wrong.

What would you put your money on with the Gracie book George ? Real or not real ? I know it is a very hard question to ask. I ask you because you are such a respected Titanic historian whom as we know has written books, been on TV etc. Hence I would go by your opinion more than anything.

I have said sorry to the seller whom was worried about negative feedback on Ebay. I have not heard from him. So far the check was stopped yesterday, then it was un-stopped today and then stopped again this afternoon when about 9 people said the book was fake. What was I to think, everyone was telling me it was not real. Of course I stopped the check again. It is getting embarrassing at the bank now.

And what about the Captain Smith and Duff-Gordon Scan I have attached? These I almost bought also.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

 

George Behe

Member
Dec 11, 1999
1,280
12
313
Hi, Miles.

>What would you put your money on with the Gracie >book George ? Real or not real ?

Well, if push comes to shove, I think I probably lean toward regarding the Gracie autograph as genuine. (I'm just telling you what my gut feeling is, since the autograph in your book is *strikingly* similar to a genuine Gracie signature.)

By the way, Miles, I've sent you a private message in response to your three PMs of this evening. I hope you'll heed my advice regarding the ebay feedback message. Good luck, old chap.

All my best,

George
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Similar threads