Dec 12, 1999
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When the wreck of the Titanic was first located, discoverer Robert Ballard reported that he saw all kinds of shoes laying around, in pairs. Later, it was reported that passengers had left shoes out to be polished, etc. I've always believed that the shoes were what was left after the passengers' bodies decomposed.

Well, we got confirmation of that last night. ABC's Nightline did a program entitled "Ghost Ship," wherein a submersible visited the German battleship Bismark, for the first time. Numerous pairs of boots were found around the wreck --a legacy of the 2,000 German sailors who went down with her.

So, I find this to be pretty strong corroborating evidence that the guys rooting around Titanic wreck site are digging up a graveyard.

Interestingly, the program seemed to confirm the statements of the German sailors that they had scuttled the Bismark. Although Bismark had suffered considerable damage to her superstructure, they found no holes below the wateline, and only two holes in the deck.

Bismark is some 3,000 feet further down than Titanic.

Regarding Ballard, although he purportedly stated that the Bismark belongs to the German people, he apparently sold the coordinates of the location of the Bismark to the millionaire adventurer, Michael McDowell (or something like that), who conducted the expedition. I wonder what he charged for that? Did he donate those proceeds to the German people? Probably not.

The British rescued some 150 German sailors, then left the rest of them and sailed off. The reason given was that it was reported there was a U-Boat in the area. However, is it possible that there was extreme bitterness over the sinking of the H.M.S. Hood? Only 4 British sailors survived that one. I suppose there was.

All those young men died, they were an average age of 20-21, all that's left of them is their black shoes, and the legacy of it all lays down at the bottom of sea, in the dark. Anti-aircraft and cannons were still poised upward, as if preparing to fire at something. The huge swatsticka is still visible on the main deck. The battleship Bismark is now a shrine to these shoes --a vigilant-looking monument frozen in time.

Having viewed all this I believe that episode of extreme violence from 1941 should be left in the dark. Someday, probably all that will be left of the site will be the shoes.
 

Mike Bull

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Dec 23, 2000
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If this is true, it is another example of double standards from Ballard-God, to think that guy was once my hero, too.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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I'm not sure that bitterness was the issue, Jan. The U-boat threat was very real and it was at about this time, fairly early in the war, that they were demonstrating just how effective they were.(Ask any surviving merchent mariners.) As combat doesn't forgive mistakes, submarine warnings had to be taken very seriously.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

Dave Hudson

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Apr 25, 2001
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Jan,
You are right, the shoes are where the bodies fell. I VERY highly doubt that they were from being left out for polishing. The passengers would have certainly put them back on when heading up to the Boat Deck even if they had been left in the corridors and spilled out enroute to the bottem, the would have certainly seperated during the 2 1/2 mile trip.
An interesting thing to point out, though, is that the shoes were only seen on the Ballard expeditions. I don't recall RMST ever photographing a pair.

David
 

Mike Bull

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Dec 23, 2000
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Funny that, isn't it? But with all the (mostly deserved) flack that RMST have had over the years, I don't think they'd go flashing pictures of these 'body spots' around, do you? Especially if they'd just settled on a nice piece of crystal or something that was right by it. May be there are dozens of these paired shoes/boots around the Titanic-maybe just one or two. Either way, just add it to the never-ending catalogue of stuff that RMST refuses to show anyone.

They are down there time after time, hour after hour-what do we see? The tip of the bow. They could be up to anything, and we'll never know.
 
Dec 31, 2000
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I believe that RMST has brought back some of the shoes. I believe I read it in their annual report from the last dive they made on her. I will have to find the URL and check again. I may be very wrong here and I truely pray to God that I am.

Beverly
 
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Andrew Rogers

Guest
After 5 1/2 hours of looking around the wreck (Sept.'98) I saw two separate shoes. One was a mans boot which I managed to capture on film and the other was what I think was a ladies shoe (like a boot with a high heel).
The famous pair in Ballard's photo would have been on a persons feet at the time of settling on the ocean floor but the (two) single shoes that I saw could have come from anywhere out of the wreck.
I'm not one to stick up for RMST but it could be that many had just deteriorated or where carried much further away. The other possibility is that (God forbid)RMST picked up every shoe they came across and now have them in their big treatment/storage warehouse in France and decided to shut their mouths!
There was a salvage expedition just one month before our trip!

Andrew Rogers
 
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Shawn vereen

Guest
Were any Bones found inside the Titanica or any ships such as the bismark
 
Dec 12, 1999
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No, no bones. But of course, neither wreck has been thoroughly searched. One of the members posted a message some time ago that according to Dr. Robert Ballard, the enormous pressure at the depth which Titanic lies would have caused the bones to disintegrate. Additionally, some microorganism has apparently devoured everything, including wood, at the site.
 

Mike Bull

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Dec 23, 2000
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Ballard originaly thought all the wood was gone-Cameron proved that wrong by only going as far as the reception room on D deck. I would guess that the further down you could get inside Titanic, the more wood you would find, and perhaps some slight evidence of human remains, too.
 
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Andrew Rogers

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Bones have a high calcium phosphate content which (I've been told) will liquidize under extreme pressure.
Even if this was not the case the bones would have softened and eventually been devoured by all the scavenging crabs and prawns (shrimps).

As for the wood, there are some places where it is in near perfect condition and yet one or two feet away it is totally gone.
I have video of the forward starboard B deck, open promenade which has the forward facing hand rail in mint condition and the joining starboard facing rail is looking rather sad.
I might be able to lift a still if anyone is interested.

Andrew
 

Dave Hudson

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Apr 25, 2001
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Mike B,

I forget where I learned this, but I heard that the reason that the D Deck Reception panelling is intact is because the wood was painted with white lead paint. The organisms can't digest the lead, so the detail is nearly perfectly preserved.

It gives new hope for the Reading and Writing Room...

David
 
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Andrew Rogers

Guest
Have sent some shots to Philip, I'm sure he will be busy but you should see them under the "More Wreck Photos" heading sometime soon.
I might be able to explain the pics in a little more detail here.
Andrew
 
Dec 31, 2000
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Thank you Andrew.. I appreciate it
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Beverly
 
Jun 10, 1999
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Mr. Rogers:
However I do appreciate your first-hand exposure to the TITANIC wreck-site, I find your presumptions on the *possible* wherabouts of the shoes in question somewhat farfetched, and the latter bearing antagonistic in nature. A logical explation of your seeing only two shoes during your dive in 1998 is quite understandable. As you are well aware TITANIC's scatter-field is vast, and enveloped in perpetual darkness. It is my understanding the the tourist visits undertaken by the MIR submersibles abide to a prearranged course...naturally allowing the visitors to behold the most predominate features of the wreck (i.e. bow, bridge, stern, props, etc.). To furthur debunk your "possible* conclusions, I offer the reflections which were made public, one via periodical while the other by television broadcast. In his contribution to Archaeology (SEE: Jan./Feb. 2001) Mr. James Delgado (BTW, the first archaeologist not affiliated with RMTI to visit the wreck) reports encountering an area around the stern which appeared unknmown and untouched...thick with debris. A substantial number of shoes was sighted by the author. You should find it interesting that the sub-pilot Chernaiev was also left intrigued with the finding!

Furthurmore, during a sitting with Mr. David Livingston (H & W noteriety) on a previouslly aired TLC documentary, Livingston was quick to mention..."There are lots of shoes down there...Women, Children and Men."

In closing, I possess firsthand documentation of a strict hands-off enactment, in regards to a *fossil* field (human remains) amended by George Tulloch & Co., which concluded with the undetered honor of the NAUTILE submersible crews during salvage operations.

Myself I can honestly attest to a video in my library in which with a keen wreck eye one can clearly distinguish a toppled shoe rack amidst the scatter-field. Numerous shoes are strewn about in close proximity.

Andrew, let it be known that I detest Mr. Arnie Gellar's ulterior objective concerning the ultimate fate of TITANIC's artefacts...dispersement by sale or auction. I would prefer the artefacts be returned to the abyss, or for that matter interned in cement on the grounds of H & W. The only option for the sake of history is permanent confinement to a prominent museum...Maritime or the specter of a tragedy setting.
I also feel since his reclamation as President of RMSTI, Mr. Gellar has only tarnished the current status of said company. I am in absolute disgust with the current RMSTI website. Is it the staff is computer illiterate, or was all of the video/camera stills from the 2000 espediton pre-maturally exposed? Why are we wreck enthusiasts being deprived of updated images on the dibilitating state of the "Queen of the Deep". Just the same old artifacts from '87 with a pitiful array of wreck images. As an aside Mr. Dr. Joseph McGinnis (SEE: "In a New Light") images remain unprecedented to date!! On the otherhand Mr. George Tulloch, Mr. Paul Henri Nargeolet and the countless others have left their mark by contributing furthur exploration, greater uderstanding of the ships demise, superior enlightening photography, and reclamation of a mere sampling of a senseless tragedy, which has touched our hearts and minds ever so deeply, and this sadness will prevail to the generations who come to learn the story of the R.M.S. TITANIC.

Would'nt it be a more fitting farewell...say a massive underwater earthquake, similar to the '29, of which some scientist believed buried the TITANIC wreck, occured by which surmounting the entire site with a mountain of sediment...forever sealing her withering dignity. Or should the purveyors continue to ferry the gawkers to the wreck site, so as to gauge her structural collapse, until a day comes when it's 50K to dive on a mass of unrecognizable tormented rubble, bearing some slight resemblence to the forgings of mankind.

I am content with my *live* visit to TITANIC...I walked the forecastle, and scaled the prow, peered deep into her holds, for a moment I even relieved Hitchens at the helm...all compliments of the Discovery Channel *live* telecast on behalf of George Tulloch. And it was Mr. Tulloch who summed it up best for me whence he reflected on the the forward bow section...
..."It looks like an old Victorian Home which lost it's care". (I wish I had said that :)

This is how I want to remember the TITANIC...and her solemn surrender to the sea.

With sincerity I am yours,

Michael A. Cundiff
 
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Christine Geyer

Guest
Michael, thanks for this statement. Talking about RMS Titanic Inc. that's exactly what I feel about them. All their secret actions have made me extremely mistrustful. If they'd really feel a sense of responsibility, respect and sensibility about their doing they would not arrange such a mumbo jumbo behind closed doors but act cautiously and gladly share their findings with the world. Their recent behavior, since the change of the leading makes them look like unscrupulous plunderers. Actually I had esteemed the possibility of saving some of the artifacts - in moderation - as a kind of legacy of something that we all love. But rather than let them take the whole ship into pieces and lock everything it would really better to have an earthquake burying it under sand. Even though is is not a nice one imagination.

But something else - Maybe this is too evil but I'd really be interested about everybody's opinion: Do you really believe that absolutely nobody at RMS Titanic Inc. has at least one of the salvaged pieces in their living room or private safe ???

Learning about this strictly confidential documents concerning actual found human remains is something that will take me a bit of digesting.

Please excuse me for maybe asking stupidly but as far as I remember we haven't met on the board before, so I'd really like to know about your function during the dives. Doesn't sound as if this was something you won in a contest, you know what I mean...
happy.gif


Thanks for sharing this insights with us.

Many regards
Christine
 
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Christine Geyer

Guest
Hi Beverly,

now this is a very interesting link !! Thanks very much
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Christine
 
Dec 12, 1999
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According to the inventory from the 2000 expedition, not only are there shoes, but R.M.S. Titanic is picking them up and bringing them to the surface.
 

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